How's this Turt?

[Young Cha1]

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/199/tacticsarenalr8.th.png (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tacticsarenalr8.png)

Should I move knight back behind the dragon?
Is the DSM effective in this setup?

[steve12]

Don't use a DSM. Don't move the Knight. The unit you choose to use instead of the DSM will greatly influence the unit placements.

[Semper-Fidelis]

i say move knight and tyrant back one, and replace DSM with a wisp, or take out knight and put in a furgy (use furgy if you're able to use it correctly)

[Young Cha1]

Why no DSM?

[The Dark Knight]

Why no DSM?

DSMs are usually a bad idea for turt formations, and are usually banned from normal turt play. It's just not a good piece and should be replaced with a wisp or a mud.

[steve12]

DSMs are not long-lasting units, and having one far back in a set will prevent it from taking advantage of its range. Not a good idea in my opinion.

[Lonely Tylenol]

DSMs are usually a bad idea for turt formations, and are usually banned from normal turt play. It's just not a good piece and should be replaced with a wisp or a mud.

That response did absolutely nothing to answer the question. Relying entirely on axiomatic knowledge gets you nowhere.

I actually like the form, save for the fact that you have your Dragon Tyrant in an exposed position (-12 power), but your DSM sits fairly well back. I assume you have the Dragon Tyrant forward to use it offensively and the DSM in the Stone cluster for longevity (and maybe defensive play), but as Steve said, having the DSM so far back (and blocked by the DT) really limits its offensive potential, which is a high priority for early usage for two major reasons:

1) The general fraility of the unit; and
2) Its reliance on the Dragon Tyrant.

If your opponent exploits either of these before you can get your DSM into full swing, you're just wasting unit places.

That said, contrary to popular opinion, the DSM does have a place in turtle formations, and it is allowed even in Alpha Turtle rules--just not in the front rank (same goes for Dragon Tyrant, by the way, but nobody follows that rule anymore). I'd say it's simply a matter of balance.

If it were me, I would move the Dragon Tyrant two spaces closer to the wall and two spaces back (to eliminate same-side Scoutage) and swap the DSM with Mud Golem, but essentially this is a trade-off: You gain some defensive advantages against corner clusters and you make the availability of your DSM more prominent than your Dragon Tyrant (as it should be), but you take the edge off your Dragon Tyrant until late in the game, which might make it harder to gain momentum, and you lose that apparently critical one-move quake advantage having a third-row Mud Golem gives you (though, really, isn't that just begging for the death of the Mud? The concept eludes me... Although, with everyone breaking the Alpha rule against front-row Dragons, I guess it basically means a cheap 26-HP burn on a Scout if someone wants it). The trade-off is really situational--it can be great, terrible, or anywhere in-between based on your playing style.

I guess it's really just a matter of balance. Find what works for you and exploit it. I can't possibly stress the importance of trial and error here--your DSM/Dragon positioning (or even the use of DSM at all) is basically open to interpretation, there's no single person on this forum that can tell you with supreme authority what will work best in that situation.

I can tell you this though: If you're going to use a DSM, make sure you can pull it off. It's not tremendously difficult to use a DSM, but you would be surprised how many "veteran" players fumble with a DSM when they try to use it well.

[Hades]

Well first of all, let me make a comment about it,if your opponent is in the same side than you.

-Your cleric is not protected, 2 or 3 moves and it is dead.
- The mud golem will destroy your cleric, your dsm and polly it'll help to kill your frost.
- I would use a furgon or a wisp instead the dsm, for the defense.


Opp sides:


-First weakness, your frost is not protected against the scouts.
-The stone will be unfocused in 4 turns.
-Your Dragon tryrant will be owned with a good combo.


Anyway, if it is your own set, and it works for you, then it is ok,but however, if somebody else made that set for you, and you dont know how to use it at 100%, it will be a waste of time.

This is my comment, i hope you can pull out something good about it.



Peace. :D

[monkus]

If you want to use the DSM, don't let a single person tell you not to. I think I know better than anyone that DSM is allowed in Alpha Turtles, so long as it isn't in the front two rows.
In terms of using the DSM in a turtle, the issue is pretty clear: either use its power sparingly and protect it VERY well, or use its power to its fullest and make complete use of its death.
I.e.:
You can hit one unit at a time with its full blast, and then immediately run with it or protect it, etc. Always keep it in a safe position and force the opponent to overextend or put him/herself in a bad position trying to chase it down.
OR
Put the DSM into a really really threatening spot, where you can kill the cleric and deal massive damage, or finish off a unit, etc. They will immediately go for it, in which case you try to do as much damage as possible with it (before it dies, and it WILL die) AND you use the distraction of it to position the rest of your units in really awesome and threatening spots.

Otherwise:
The dragon in the front row is a little silly. It won't have its full power and it'll be a huge target, being unstoned, so perhaps move it back a little.

Opposite sides you might have some problems, but if you go for an immediate aggressive you might do okay. It'll be more difficult since you don't have too many units with high endurance for a drawn out opposite sides war, but if you can manage to dish out a ton of damage quickly you might be okay.

In the end, it all comes down to what you learn from experience. Never be afraid to experiment.

[Magician]

DSM turtles are fun, and as monkus said, completely legal in Alpha Rules - as much as players don't like to play against them.

The only "fault" I can find with your form is the dragon placement: it's simply too far forward (front row dragons are "illegal" in Alpha Rules - they're range units), and as has been previously mentioned, blocks DSM movement.

A few things I'd do:


Move the dragon back to protect the stone cluster from an early mudquake
Move the knight to infront of the mud, for the same reason as above, and move the dragon to one of its sides.
Take the knight out, and swap for a furgon, moving the dragon infront of the stone cluster.


I'd be most tempted by options 2 and 3. Only problem I forsee with 3 is a potential lack of attackers, but that's what the furg is for. :)

[FreddyAdu23]

DSM turtles are fun, and as monkus said, completely legal in Alpha Rules - as much as players don't like to play against them.

The only "fault" I can find with your form is the dragon placement: it's simply too far forward (front row dragons are "illegal" in Alpha Rules - they're range units), and as has been previously mentioned, blocks DSM movement.

A few things I'd do:


Move the dragon back to protect the stone cluster from an early mudquake
Move the knight to infront of the mud, for the same reason as above, and move the dragon to one of its sides.
Take the knight out, and swap for a furgon, moving the dragon infront of the stone cluster.


I'd be most tempted by options 2 and 3. Only problem I forsee with 3 is a potential lack of attackers, but that's what the furg is for. :)

If you want to use the DSM, don't let a single person tell you not to. I think I know better than anyone that DSM is allowed in Alpha Turtles, so long as it isn't in the front two rows.
In terms of using the DSM in a turtle, the issue is pretty clear: either use its power sparingly and protect it VERY well, or use its power to its fullest and make complete use of its death.
I.e.:
You can hit one unit at a time with its full blast, and then immediately run with it or protect it, etc. Always keep it in a safe position and force the opponent to overextend or put him/herself in a bad position trying to chase it down.
OR
Put the DSM into a really really threatening spot, where you can kill the cleric and deal massive damage, or finish off a unit, etc. They will immediately go for it, in which case you try to do as much damage as possible with it (before it dies, and it WILL die) AND you use the distraction of it to position the rest of your units in really awesome and threatening spots.

Otherwise:
The dragon in the front row is a little silly. It won't have its full power and it'll be a huge target, being unstoned, so perhaps move it back a little.

Opposite sides you might have some problems, but if you go for an immediate aggressive you might do okay. It'll be more difficult since you don't have too many units with high endurance for a drawn out opposite sides war, but if you can manage to dish out a ton of damage quickly you might be okay.

In the end, it all comes down to what you learn from experience. Never be afraid to experiment.

well 2 amazing turtlers have said what they have said. In my opionion i like it for 2 reasons

1) its orginal, not Mag's set (really Punishments) (98% of turt games i play i vs that set)
2) If you played it right and went into a defensive hundle, u could probably win, but if u do that i'd switch the knight for a furgy (and protect him)

[Magician]

Just for clarification, the set "owner" is Punishment. I saw the form, liked the idea and began to use it. I've got a few turts up my sleeve, but that's argueably one of the stronger sets out there. Unfortunately. Damn band-wagon.

[steve12]

Monkus and Magician, you guys have some excellent points that I completely agree with, but I took into consideration the skill of the person asking the questions here. I find that experienced players can use a DSM very wisely in many situations and can use it in many variations for threats, but that's tough to do if you aren't even really sure about how good a turtle form is. I'm not the turtle master and I'm not sure, but would using the other basic turtle units give him an edge on gaining more experience in turtle games?

[|AFO|]

Hmm..you just gave me an idea...Gracias.

[-Dape-]

Monkus, how could you say DSM is a good unit to use in turtle, it's the WORST unit to ever use in a turtle.

That set there vs same sides even vs oppo would be tore apart and spat out, first move armor, he armors, i move scout which is infront of my frosty around 4 spaces so next move it can hit frost because i'll jump mud in after, i've de-armored him, move other scout in and hit DSM...nearly dead, he heals, i jump dragon down, hit dragon or knight, He'll be owned in a matter of moves vs any skilled turtler.

[Cliche]

Monkus, how could you say DSM is a good unit to use in turtle, it's the WORST unit to ever use in a turtle.

That set there vs same sides even vs oppo would be tore apart and spat out, first move armor, he armors, i move scout which is infront of my frosty around 4 spaces so next move it can hit frost because i'll jump mud in after, i've de-armored him, move other scout in and hit DSM...nearly dead, he heals, i jump dragon down, hit dragon or knight, He'll be owned in a matter of moves vs any skilled turtler.

Monkus also advised him to move some units around so he would be able to avoid situations like the one you just described.

I agree with Monkus on his entire post.

-Edit- I also agree with LT's post, which is a "carbon copy" of Monkus' post.

[Magician]

Monkus and Magician, you guys have some excellent points that I completely agree with, but I took into consideration the skill of the person asking the questions here. I find that experienced players can use a DSM very wisely in many situations and can use it in many variations for threats, but that's tough to do if you aren't even really sure about how good a turtle form is. I'm not the turtle master and I'm not sure, but would using the other basic turtle units give him an edge on gaining more experience in turtle games?

I would tend to agree, but it is up to young cha. As long as you're using a formation you're comfortable with, and enjoy using, that's all you need. That's what I find to be the hardest part about this game - finding a formation you like to use, and that's unique in its own right.

Monkus, how could you say DSM is a good unit to use in turtle, it's the WORST unit to ever use in a turtle.

That set there vs same sides even vs oppo would be tore apart and spat out, first move armor, he armors, i move scout which is infront of my frosty around 4 spaces so next move it can hit frost because i'll jump mud in after, i've de-armored him, move other scout in and hit DSM...nearly dead, he heals, i jump dragon down, hit dragon or knight, He'll be owned in a matter of moves vs any skilled turtler.

It's not, if used properly. You're completely forgetting about threats, counter-threats, etc. - the "basics" of turtling. As Cliche explains:

Monkus also advised him to move some units around so he would be able to avoid situations like the one you just described.

Which pretty much sums up a counter-arguement to your case.

[Punishment]

Dape, have you ever tried to kill a stoned DSM with scouts? lol

It's hard to do.

Seriously, i played with a dsm turtle for a very short while, and in opp sides i just advanced it to threaten cleric because they block like a mother, and scouts damage is healable.

[Lord Sesshomaru]

Done right a stoned DSM is nasty. I used to have a set like that before the new blocking rules were put into place. Pun summed it up quite nicely, and a DSM that gets in a well placed block will wreak havoc.

[Lonely Tylenol]

well 2 amazing turtlers have said what they have said.

Monkus and Magician, you guys have some excellent points that I completely agree with . . .

Monkus, how could you say . . .

Monkus also advised him to move some units around so he would be able to avoid situations like the one you just described.

I agree with Monkus on his entire post.

HELLO?! CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME???

Have I really made that many ignore lists?

:p

[Match Strike]

HELLO?! CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME???

Have I really made that many ignore lists?

:p

Did anyone else feel a breeze?


To the OP: Experiment and have fun. I should know that not every concept works, but you may stumble upon something you really like. Never stop mesing around.

[Young Cha1]

Thx everyone for the helpful advice, I was just experimenting with turts and I stumbled across this, so I was just looking for some reactions and advice which you all contributed to. I don't play too much TAO, but I will try this set out and see how it works. Once again thanks for all your valuable opinions. See you in Rev

[steve12]

It probably was a ghost. Weird.

[Match Strike]

-Edit- I also agree with LT's post, which is a "carbon copy" of Monkus' post.

LT's post was first, Wise One.

[Cliche]

LT's post was first, Wise One.

It's an inside joke between LT and I, Clueless.