Yet another formation

[lemon_]

Hello guys.

So, i've recently came back to TAO and got interested in center forms. Heres the latest version:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9792/taoformlemones1.png (http://imageshack.us)

While this form seems to be quite good against corner sets I seem to have problems with is magic heavy centers. Also, bw is somewhat exposed to scout fire. Also, its no good against golds (or i plainly suck against them).

So, constructive criticism and suggestions would be appreciated.

[phoenixofflames]

If you want to fight magic heavy centers, fight fire with fire (literally). chuck a pyro in for the assassin or BW or chanty.

As to BW: you could back up to where chanty is and move chanty to backrow, or if you ditch either BW or chanty for the pyro, that solves the problem too.

against golds: don't worry about it.

[† x_anubis_x †]

dont listen to phoenixofflames, that set looks solid except i would move your chanty next to your cleric on the right side and move your assassin to where the chanty was

[Duplicity]

dont listen to phoenixofflames

Uncalled for.

that set looks solid except i would move your chanty next to your cleric on the right side and move your assassin to where the chanty was

That set looks solid except for the fact that you disagree with some of the unit placements. Ah, do we see a problem here?

My suggestions: Widen your form so that it takes up more space. This prevents flanking and is harder to bomb. You should replace BW with a pyro, or both wards for 2 pyros if you're feeling gutsy.

[XeqtR]

Hello guys.

So, i've recently came back to TAO and got interested in center forms. Heres the latest version:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9792/taoformlemones1.png (http://imageshack.us)

While this form seems to be quite good against corner sets I seem to have problems with is magic heavy centers. Also, bw is somewhat exposed to scout fire. Also, its no good against golds (or i plainly suck against them).

So, constructive criticism and suggestions would be appreciated.

First off, do not use your lightning ward on a knight or any other useless unit. Keep it as a threat. If your 'magic heavy' center means three mages, wait for one to come in the lw range. Move the barrier 1 row behind and barrier the lightning ward thus keeping the threat alive. Keep sniping and healing once each every three turns.

There are no sets that are not solid. Everything depends on how you use it. When I first saw pils' set, I thought he was just trying to prove a point by playing with a randomly arranged set. Little did I know how he had evolved it through experience to suit his way of thinking. But since you had made the set after 'heavy' inspiration, you need to keep practicing A LOT and make minor modifications as you deem fit to either the set or your technique ;)

[monkus]

In truth, unit placement, unit choice, and everything else having to do with your form all depends on how you plan on using it.You say your barrier ward is exposed to scout fire; this means you're using it in such a way that it should be farther back. How else might one use it?
Well, you could potentially rush a witch or scout up, barrier it so it doesn't die, and then kill a cleric or other vulnerable unit. In this case, the BW is more appropriate. So can any of us, not seeing how you play your form, tell you where the BW should go? Certainly not.
Every form becomes stronger through playtesting and experience. You see where your units are starting off, and where you really wish they were starting off for the strategies you form early game. You also see what units you like using, etc.

In terms of fighting center mage-heavy forms, first, as was said before, save your LW for the important kills. Don't zap a knight, for example, when a witch is relatively nearby. As long as your LW has no wait, it forms literally a barrier that the witch will rarely cross. Also, use your power and heavy armor to your advantage. Mages have little hp. So, even if they can dish out damage, they can't take it. If you rush forward with some knights, you can tear apart mages easily. Two hits kills a mage regardless of heal. A knight takes a significant amount of hits to kill, especially with some healing going on. Just don't be reckless.

There are a few obvious no-no's in form making, like a backrow LW, or a frontrow cleric. Your form seems relatively solid. Everything else, minor shifts and whatnot, comes with experience. In terms of beating golds, it's tough, but it'll come with time, and trust me, form won't change the fact.

[XeqtR]

Well said.

[philrox]

Every time he's going to post, monkus prepares to type an essay. xD

Well said though, man.

[Wisher]

Like xeter said, if you use the LW correct you can tear up most any set..if you are good anyways lol.

[bobo99]

It looks like a solid form. I'm not sure how you play it, but from first glance the left side flank looks fairly open. I say this because it has only scout and assassin, with knight out of the way and witch trapped behind the BW.

[Megabyte]

There are a few obvious no-no's in form making, like a backrow LW, or a frontrow cleric. Your form seems relatively solid. Everything else, minor shifts and whatnot, comes with experience. In terms of beating golds, it's tough, but it'll come with time, and trust me, form won't change the fact.

I'm tempted to make a setup with a front row cleric now.


In terms of prediction, you'd be ahead since you'd have a 1 or 2 turn jump on your opponent (since you know they'd prioritize killing the cleric).

[pils]

I'm tempted to make a setup with a front row cleric now.


In terms of prediction, you'd be ahead since you'd have a 1 or 2 turn jump on your opponent (since you know they'd prioritize killing the cleric).

Yeah but any player with a basic understanding of the game would be able to make the conjecture that they wouldn't need to go all out on an offensive to beat you. All they would have to do is pick apart your units.

And, I'm sure you would eventually realize, the best/only way to win would to just go all out and more or less rush your opponent. In which case anyone who knows how to play defense could, in most cases, defend.
But again it all comes down to how good your opponent is.

Chances are you could probably beat more then half the greys on TAO with a front row cleric dropless set. But thats because half the greys on TAO are total noobs. But I don't think you could beat a relatively skilled player with a front row cleric.

[Wisher]

3/8 not 1/2(are noobs)

[pils]

3/8 not 1/2(are noobs)

I was actually leaning towards 2/3....

[Soda]

You all suck, well most of you anyways. You have all these scenarios set out and how you will counter them, that won't actually happen. Like when you will get to snipe with your scout and heal every 3 turns, which I must say is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Also waiting for a mage to come into the LW range, you can wait as long as you want it won't happen. What about saving that LW shot? There are times when you have to save it and other times where you have to shoot that knight to keep him away. Stop assuming shit. I don't really have any input, I just don't like these kind of threads.
PS. If you want input play me.

[XeqtR]

You all suck, well most of you anyways. You have all these scenarios set out and how you will counter them, that won't actually happen. Like when you will get to snipe with your scout and heal every 3 turns, which I must say is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Also waiting for a mage to come into the LW range, you can wait as long as you want it won't happen. What about saving that LW shot? There are times when you have to save it and other times where you have to shoot that knight to keep him away. Stop assuming shit. I don't really have any input, I just don't like these kind of threads.
PS. If you want input play me.

Some people tend to think about a game and plan it in advance before actually getting into it. This includes hypothetical defence and counter-attacks. With experience (or pride), this planning diminishes but well, that is beyond the scope of discussion here. Let us assume the OP gets countered by a center warded mage heavy center set. One thing I would definitely not use the lightning ward on a knight which he can take back and then use a witch burn and barrier it off threatening my cleric (which would need to be moved) or another hit later on. At least not early on in the game. This would apply to the same side turts you play too.

Regarding scout, sniping and healing every three turns were not meant to be taken together. Sniping (and then barriering) was suggested as a good attack on the mages from a little lateral (flank) position to counter the mage attacks for which you cannot obviously sacrifice a knight, for example. And, healing every three turns becomes compulsary to counter the high wait time of the mages. Neither monkus nor me said the lightning ward was to be saved to hit the witch. We said it had to be kept safe to stop the witch from advancing. But once in middle game, yes, it all changes and some of what you said would actually apply.

[monkus]

You all suck, well most of you anyways.

Great way to start anything persuasive.

You have all these scenarios set out and how you will counter them, that won't actually happen.

I think some of us have at least enough play time to not come up with useless scenarios that won't present themselves. Almost any scenario I mention is one that I've encountered. Who are you to say they won't?

Like when you will get to snipe with your scout and heal every 3 turns, which I must say is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Stalling turtle game, two cautious players with opposite side forms, or even late game when both players have few units with a lot of distance between them are examples of where you might be sniping and healing often. I don't see why you're discounting a strategy that sometimes comes into play.

Also waiting for a mage to come into the LW range, you can wait as long as you want it won't happen.

Yeah, that's kind of the point. If my cleric is in the backrow behind my LW, I would love to force my opponent's mages to walk around. If my opponent can hit my cleric with two moves of his DSM, then I know he can initiate that attack without warning and I'll have exactly two turns to save my cleric. However, if I have a guaranteed LW shot free, I'll always have that solution, and it will only take one of the two turns. Now, the DSM has to trek all the way around the LW to get to my cleric. It's basic strategy that you don't seem to grasp.

What about saving that LW shot? There are times when you have to save it and other times where you have to shoot that knight to keep him away. Stop assuming shit.

Did we ever say our advice was absolute and inflexible? Of course not. You don't have to save the shot, and the obvious preferable situation is to gauge the situation. However, suggesting basic concepts helps people do this better. When you have a DSM breathing down your throat, generally you don't use your LW on a knight. It's not 100%, but it's a nice general rule that people should at least be INFORMED of. I'm not assuming anything.

The logical conclusion of your argument here is that nobody should ever give advice, because there exist scenarios where that advice doesn't apply. Let's say my friend tells me to go to the bookstore to get an awesome review book. Obviously he is assuming that there is not currently a firefight between police and armed terrorists occurring at the bookstore. There are times when I should go into the bookstore, and times when I shouldn't. We don't indict my friend for assuming shit. His advice is generally sound, and I'll keep it in mind when I later assess the situation.


I don't really have any input, I just don't like these kind of threads.
PS. If you want input play me.

So don't post on them. We're giving newer players advice, and it has generally been shown to improve one's game to get advice on intelligent strategies. Sorry if you disagree. Too bad.

[Vailan]

I think Soda has some points.... but if it was presented a little bit better it would sound a lot closer to Monkus's post.

I agree with Monkus, although, it's not as if my agreement gives his post anymore weight.
Like the LW example, a lot of times its great not to waste it on the knight so it still hinders mages from entering sensitive areas of your formation. One thing thats really great to keep in mind, is using the opponents mages recovery time to your advantage. It's really a difficult thing to master... matching up your recovery times with there units to your advantage but once you get how to play efficiently down, it really steps your game up.

[Soda]

Great way to start anything persuasive.

Thank you, truth hurts. ;)

I think some of us have at least enough play time to not come up with useless scenarios that won't present themselves. Almost any scenario I mention is one that I've encountered. Who are you to say they won't?

Who are you to say he will face that specific scenario? Maybe all he is going to face are corner turtles with no mages?

Stalling turtle game, two cautious players with opposite side forms, or even late game when both players have few units with a lot of distance between them are examples of where you might be sniping and healing often. I don't see why you're discounting a strategy that sometimes comes into play.

We are talking about gold? Oh, pardon me.
When we are talking about 2 grey center turtles one of which has 3 or 2 mages, I will be surprised if healing will make a difference. I see it more of a slug fest of the knights trying to get to the mages with the scouts out of equation.

Yeah, that's kind of the point. If my cleric is in the backrow behind my LW, I would love to force my opponent's mages to walk around. If my opponent can hit my cleric with two moves of his DSM, then I know he can initiate that attack without warning and I'll have exactly two turns to save my cleric. However, if I have a guaranteed LW shot free, I'll always have that solution, and it will only take one of the two turns. Now, the DSM has to trek all the way around the LW to get to my cleric. It's basic strategy that you don't seem to grasp.

We are still playing a gold game?
You can wait with your LW for as long as you want as I rush my knights in.

Did we ever say our advice was absolute and inflexible? Of course not. You don't have to save the shot, and the obvious preferable situation is to gauge the situation. However, suggesting basic concepts helps people do this better. When you have a DSM breathing down your throat, generally you don't use your LW on a knight. It's not 100%, but it's a nice general rule that people should at least be INFORMED of. I'm not assuming anything.

The logical conclusion of your argument here is that nobody should ever give advice, because there exist scenarios where that advice doesn't apply. Let's say my friend tells me to go to the bookstore to get an awesome review book. Obviously he is assuming that there is not currently a firefight between police and armed terrorists occurring at the bookstore. There are times when I should go into the bookstore, and times when I shouldn't. We don't indict my friend for assuming shit. His advice is generally sound, and I'll keep it in mind when I later assess the situation.

Exactly, but when I read these scenarios I get the feeling that this is the only thing that he is expected to face in his games.

So don't post on them. We're giving newer players advice, and it has generally been shown to improve one's game to get advice on intelligent strategies. Sorry if you disagree. Too bad.

And I am just expressing my opinion on how useless this advice is, as people gather all these crazy scenarios from one's form.

Play the game. Thats the only thing that will make you better in my opinion. I like this assumption stuff, I am getting good at it myself.

[Punishment]

In turtle I have a whole game plan because everyone plays the same. In freestyle, the only scenario i know how to handle well is if someone bum rushes their mud in to a place which I have left open for them. I know exactly what moves to make to make sure it doesn't cripple me :p

Your set is good. If you can't make it work, the problem isn't really with the set.

[Megabyte]

Yeah but any player with a basic understanding of the game would be able to make the conjecture that they wouldn't need to go all out on an offensive to beat you. All they would have to do is pick apart your units.

And, I'm sure you would eventually realize, the best/only way to win would to just go all out and more or less rush your opponent. In which case anyone who knows how to play defense could, in most cases, defend.
But again it all comes down to how good your opponent is.

Chances are you could probably beat more then half the greys on TAO with a front row cleric dropless set. But thats because half the greys on TAO are total noobs. But I don't think you could beat a relatively skilled player with a front row cleric.

Well, there's one simply counter to all that...I never said it was a dropless set, or that it'd be a single cleric set.

[rabbi]

Your set is good. If you can't make it work, the problem isn't really with the set.


Agreed

[lemon_]

Wow. Why all of these sudden respones? Anyway, I do know how to play in general and I know how to play this set. It worked really well here, and works quite well in legends. Im still using it with some rare drops mixed in there. So please, all those "save your LW for mages" advices that aren't useful at all. What I was asking for, to point out any holes and weaknesses that could be fixed easily. Bw placement is my own choice, I know drawbacks and advantages It gives, same goes for all of the units. But I know im not really good, so I might be missing something. I thought myself that the set was quite solid, but i wasn't sure so I've posted it here.

It was probably my fault tho why i got those playing advices from you, my english sucks.

To sum it up: I know how to play the game. I know how to play this set. Don't teach me how to play the game :p.

[lemon_]

Prove it, and play me


Prove what, that I know how to play? Why would I bother?.. I dont know you, and I see absolutely no reason to do so.

[philrox]

lemon = noob

[Megaron]

Nope

[Vailan]

Lemon is not a noob. Is a great player.

[Elentari]

Prove it, and play meProve what, that I know how to play? Why would I bother?.. I dont know you, and I see absolutely no reason to do so.

Is it just me, or would most of you rather cut off your own hand than spend >2 minutes in close proximity to Real Deal?

[Retired]

Pathetic set.

[Megabyte]

Is it just me, or would most of you rather cut off your own hand than spend >2 minutes in close proximity to Real Deal?

close and not-so-close proximity


It's more of a general aura, sort of thing. He see's dead people and all that.