November the Fifth

[monkus]

"Remember, Remember
The fifth of November,
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."

For anyone who hasn't seen V for Vendetta, the movie raises big questions of proper governance and the role of the masses. Today is the day that the movie circles around. Today is November the Fifth.

Especially in today's world, do you think the people should be putting more effort into making government into something different than it is? In America, the government has less than half of popular approval. Will we do something about it in the 2008 election?
What about the rest of the world? Are the people standing still while their governments are walking all over them? V for Vendetta demonstrates the extreme example, but its message can still apply elsewhere.

"Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth."

[Cliche]

I love V for Vendetta. One of my favorite movies.

[Cliche]

That move is very good, and can be downloaded at, www.torrentz.com

In American, i think that people should rise up, and fight agasint things they dont agree with.

I think you let the goverments to much power.



Europe <3

American citizens have a lot more power than you think.

[The Cheat]

I love V.


His ideas are a model for me and what I wish to do.


The Time to rise up is now...action must be taken.

[Megabyte]

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.

In American, i think that people should rise up, and fight agasint things they dont agree with.

I think you let the goverments to much power.



Europe <3

We are oft to blame in this, 'Tis too much proved - that with devotion's visage, And pious action we do sugar o'er, The devil himself.

[mushroom_girl]

America is a democracy. Britain, as portrayed in the movie, is a totalitarian government (one extreme) that V tries to turn into anarchy (another extreme.) Democracy has choices made by the people and has its people elect the leaders into place, the majority of our nation sadly voted for Bush in his second term. In V for Vendetta, Sutler was put into power by using fear, then proceeded to make it a big-brother-type of country.
I love V.


His ideas are a model for me and what I wish to do.


The Time to rise up is now...action must be taken.
You really think that anarchy is the way to go?

I love this movie and the message to stand up for your rights, but he was dealing with a very corrupt totalitarian government. We are not a totalitarian government, we are a democracy. The world cannot run in anarchy, we need structure. If you leave the people to run themselves, someone will rise to power anyway, and the people will let them. We are not a world of leaders, we are a world of followers and contributors.

There is also no denial that V is what we would consider a terrorist. He is a martyr, he even blows up the parliament building! He is not a model citizen. Again, anarchy cannot work, and never will work. When there is no leader to guide the people, someone like Adam Sutler/Susan (who is an allusion to Adolf Hitler) can rise to power.

Now, V is supposed to be a good man, I guess...but he's very angry, and his ideals are pure fiction. If some guy in an Osama bin Laden mask blew up the White House because they didn't like how George Bush ran things, how many people would show up in that mask cheering?

[Megabyte]

V isn't supposed to be a good man, the movie constantly shows him self depicting himself as evil.


Don't take it so much to heart shroom ;)

[mushroom_girl]

V isn't supposed to be a good man, the movie constantly shows him self depicting himself as evil.


Don't take it so much to heart shroom ;)
I'm not, I'm just saying that TC has his ideals a little tweaked. :happy:

Also, I'm in the mood for some silly debate.

[Neeko-MC]

Lol, Monkus...! Ive had a brillant bonfire night, had a party saturday then had some fireworks today, got a 78 repeater from the shop for $30 was the best firework ive ever bought, lasted a hole 10mins. :D

[Megabyte]

eh, as long as know it'll be a silly one

ignorance + kids + misconception + hollywood + debate = ...well, nothing I'd touch, but that's just me

[Mephistopheles]

People in America have more power than they realize, although we live in more of a Capitalist Republic than we do a Democracy. Governments unfortunately throughout history have generally followed the rule of: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". As of right now, democracy (or this form of it that exists today) seems to be the best model for a government that we have, so until it fails to an extreme (which might not be too far away) people are content with suffering though its shortcomings.

The problem with a new solution to government is that there is no easy way to implement it without diasaster, which is why we try to ammend it instead of completely rewriting it. Its like trying to fix a badly broken down car while it is driving 70 mph down the expressway, the only real way to fix it is to park it for a while, make the repairs, and start it back up again. Something like a global government would probably work wonders in todays world where we are so instantly connected with everyone else. The only problem is that we would have to learn to get along first, something we haven't figured out how to do yet. And, as in every form of government, its weakness would be the greed of men (and women), whose quest for power and money will inevitably corrupt even the most pure of ideas.

[Kyir]

I was about to watch it.

Crazy.

[The Cheat]

America is a democracy. Britain, as portrayed in the movie, is a totalitarian government (one extreme) that V tries to turn into anarchy (another extreme.) Democracy has choices made by the people and has its people elect the leaders into place, the majority of our nation sadly voted for Bush in his second term. In V for Vendetta, Sutler was put into power by using fear, then proceeded to make it a big-brother-type of country.

You really think that anarchy is the way to go?

I love this movie and the message to stand up for your rights, but he was dealing with a very corrupt totalitarian government. We are not a totalitarian government, we are a democracy. The world cannot run in anarchy, we need structure. If you leave the people to run themselves, someone will rise to power anyway, and the people will let them. We are not a world of leaders, we are a world of followers and contributors.

There is also no denial that V is what we would consider a terrorist. He is a martyr, he even blows up the parliament building! He is not a model citizen. Again, anarchy cannot work, and never will work. When there is no leader to guide the people, someone like Adam Sutler/Susan (who is an allusion to Adolf Hitler) can rise to power.

Now, V is supposed to be a good man, I guess...but he's very angry, and his ideals are pure fiction. If some guy in an Osama bin Laden mask blew up the White House because they didn't like how George Bush ran things, how many people would show up in that mask cheering?

From chaos to anarchy and then back to order. That is the system.


V has the right idea. Period. People are nothing but sheep looking for the next person or idea to follow.

Democracy works...sure.....but at the current time America does not have a "perfect" democracy. we never have...and never will.

I'm tired of talking about change...I'm ready to go make it happen. Voting won't do that...rules and laws and order won't do that. It is time for the people to rise up and take control back.


"The people should not be afraid of its government, the government should be afraid of its people."

[Megabyte]

But, we're not afraid of our government...we're more mildly annoyed.

[The Cheat]

But, we're not afraid of our government...we're more mildly annoyed.

I didn't say we where....

But if we keep on our current path...we will be in the future.

[Zander]

This is reality, cheat. We don't live in a movie, or a comic book. Or, excuse me, graphic novel*.
It's fine for you to admire all this, but fooling yourself into believing it's going to happen for you reminds me of my baby brother's friend thinking he could be a transformer, fighting evil.

[Megabyte]

But if we keep on our current path...we will be in the future.


Debate it with shroom, I only go with the informed topics. Call it elitest if you will.

[uniquinous]

I love V.


His ideas are a model for me and what I wish to do. blowup england? :huh:

[Ächilles]

Fuck the man.

Fight the power.

[Liquid Swordsman]

I honestly really didn't like the movie that much. I mean it's not like it's a terrible movie, I just couldn't get into it for some reason. Maybe because I was reading the book that it's loosely based on (what's it called again? I really can't remember it) at the time, and I hate being forced to read books for school.

[rabbi]

This is reality, cheat. We don't live in a movie, or a comic book. Or, excuse me, graphic novel*.
It's fine for you to admire all this, but fooling yourself into believing it's going to happen for you reminds me of my baby brother's friend thinking he could be a transformer, fighting evil.

HAHAHA, thats jokes, lmfao!!!

[Megabyte]

Fuck the man.

Fight the power.

Question, is it acceptable if my goal is to subvert the power to my own ends and essentially make myself the man?

[Ächilles]

Question, is it acceptable if my goal is to subvert the power to my own ends and essentially make myself the man?

I don't care who the man is. I say FUCK ALL OF 'EM.

[Liquid Swordsman]

hey what's the name of the book the movie is based around? I can't remember and it's pissing me off.

[Cavour]

hey what's the name of the book the movie is based around? I can't remember and it's pissing me off.

I think it's called Google.com, nub.

:cool:

[Liquid Swordsman]

I tried, even wikipedia'd it and got nothing

What's the name of the damned book!

[Megabyte]

hey what's the name of the book the movie is based around? I can't remember and it's pissing me off.

Based around the "V for Vendetta" comic series written in the 80's.

[Cavour]

I tried, even wikipedia'd it and got nothing

What's the name of the damned book!

I think you're just confused. There's this awesome new movie coming out where Angelina Jolie is a king or something and fights monsters, and that's based very loosely off of a book by Stephen King I think. Or Charles Dickens. I oft confuse the two.

So yeah, thats probably the one you're thinking of.

[Liquid Swordsman]

wrong


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

found it :cool:

pfft, I knew I wasn't crazy

[Megabyte]

wrong


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

found it :cool:

pfft, I knew I wasn't crazy

no...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta

[Liquid Swordsman]

Have you ever read the book 1984? It's like the same exact thing as v for vendetta

well, not the same, but I mean you can tell the book influenced the movie

[Megabyte]

Have you ever read the book 1984? It's like the same exact thing as v for vendetta

well, not the same, but I mean you can tell the book influenced the movie

Actually, I have a few times, and aside from the concept of an intimidating government being the ruling power there's not really much of a similarity. If you're going to take it like that though, you might as well say it's the exact same thing as every movie/book/whatever that involves a corrupt/overpowered government.


1984 could POSSIBLY be considered a progression of the "V for Vendetta" England if it had been allowed to continue for generations, but that's about as far as I'd compare them.

[Liquid Swordsman]

All I know is my 11th grade english teacher did a whole unit on the book and then we watched V for Vendetta after reading it because supposedly the book played a big roll when the writer of V for Vendetta wrote it. She was a pretty smart lady too, think she had been teaching english like 20+ years when I had her.

[Megabyte]

All I know is my 11th grade english teacher did a whole unit on the book and then we watched V for Vendetta after reading it because supposedly the book played a big roll when the writer of V for Vendetta wrote it. She was a pretty smart lady too, think she had been teaching english like 20+ years when I had her.

Far be it for me to contradict your teacher, but I just don't see the similarities beyond a basic government premise (and even then, there's some pretty big differences).

I'm sure the guys who wrote it had read 1984, and it perhaps helped plant a seed in their creative inspiration, but it's hardly a comparative work or the only thing that helped inspire them.


It's like saying everyone who writes a fantasy novel or setting these days got it from LoTR. Sure, I'm sure they read it and loved it, and it helped inspire...but it's not like they just copy/paste the trilogy.

[Liquid Swordsman]

I see where you are coming from, and honestly I don't remember enough of the book or the movie to make any sort of counter arguement that won't make me look retarded, so yeah, you may very well be correct.

[Megabyte]

I see where you are coming from, and honestly I don't remember enough of the book or the movie to make any sort of counter arguement that won't make me look retarded, so yeah, you may very well be correct.

Who knows, either way it's still a fun movie :p I think you should watch it again, outside of the school context.


Definitely makes my top 10 list.

[Ächilles]

No, he is correct. V for Vendetta is a totally different series in no way based off of Orwell's 1984. V for Vendetta the movie is based off of V for Vendetta the comic. The comic was influenced by dystopias in general, 1984 being one of them. But they are two different stories set in different worlds written by different people during different generations.

She probably just showed you the movie because it had the same concept as 1984 - both are set in dystopian societies.

[Liquid Swordsman]

well, majority rules, I guess either my teacher was wrong, or I misinterpreted whatever her lesson for that part of the curriculum was

[The AIDS Virus]

Yay Ron Paul!! Yay fundraising records!! Remember, remember.:bigsmile:

[Excaliber]

I love this movie!!!

I am gonna go watch it now.

[Wisher]

make POPCORN .

V for Vendetta..what is that 3 hours long or 4? It's either that long or i fell asleep. I watched it again though and that's a real good movie.

[KBHoleN1]

It's 2 hours and 12 minutes long ...

[Jeffery]

I prefer dynotopian societies.

[The AIDS Virus]

The movie is based on the story of Guy Fawkes btw...

You would prefer dynotopian societys jeffery.

[Wisher]

Liar liar pants on fire hanging from a telephone wire.You know the rest?

[The AIDS Virus]

Guy Fawkes is an English revolutionary who tried to burn down parliment on November 5, 15__...something. He failed. Whoo... great story.

[Ächilles]

Guy Fawkes is an English revolutionary who tried to burn down parliment on November 5, 15__...something. He failed. Whoo... great story.

Yeah?

And what the fuck have you done with your life?

[The AIDS Virus]

Well... yesterday I made a tuna sandwich, and it was delicious.

[Jeffery]

Well... yesterday I made a tuna sandwich, and it was delicious.
How does dolphin taste?

[Megabyte]

How does dolphin taste?

the smarter the animal, the better the taste


Gotta get me some monkey, I bet they make a good burger.

[Jeffery]

the smarter the animal, the better the taste


Gotta get me some monkey, I bet they make a good burger.
It thats true, then most of the people in this forum must taste pretty damn awful.

[Megabyte]

It thats true, then most of the people in this forum must taste pretty damn awful.

It's why cannibalism has been in such a decline over the centuries.

[Kyir]

It's why cannibalism has been in such a decline over the centuries.

There just aren't enough explorers trapped on mountains anymore.

[monkus]

Screw cannibalism out of necessity. Go for cannibalism for pleasure. That's what a real man does. He eats another real man.

Sure, anarchy is a terrible idea, but that doesn't mean that the idea of government fearing its people isn't legitimate. It's not so much that revolution is necessary; it's that the FEAR of revolution is necessary.

A government would never wiretap its people if it were afraid that the populace would use its powers liberally; i.e. if Bush had a deep, warranted fear of impeachment, he wouldn't do half the crap he has done.

[The AIDS Virus]

IF thats true, then most of the people in this forum must taste pretty damn awful.

Ironic... sorry, had to be a grammar nazi.


On another note. Down with Bush and his wire tapping, it's blocking my cock.

[monkus]

Ironic... sorry, had to be a grammar nazi.

You're not being a grammar nazi. You're being a typo nazi. There's a huge difference and the latter is a tad more pretentious considering Jeffrey is perfectly aware of the rules of grammar, as opposed to correcting grammar where you hope to teach someone something.

[The AIDS Virus]

You are correct, I am slightly mistaken. I am a typo nazi.

[Jeffery]

I am also typing half of the stuff here tpday WHILE driving. So it is easy to miss a typo, and even easier to just leave it even if I see it.

[The AIDS Virus]

lmao, normally I would think that was really stupid, but today that sounds really badass

[Realist]

Haha. I watched VfV right now because of this thread. The writing sucks (how stupid is the whiny girl! "Let me go home and get tortured." And V throws daggers at people...right...), but I guess that's not the point. They have no idea how to run a terrorist organization (hint: you need more than one terrorist. Why do you think they have suicide bombers?) and even less how to run a fascist government (make sure your chief intelligence officer is in with the plot, you know).

Can someone please tell me when any revolution by "freedom fighters" led to a better government or society? French Revolution replaced a horrible monarchy first with the reign of terror and later with a murderous imperialist. Soviet revolution replaced a sucky Czarism with one of the most murderous regimes in history. Every decade there are a bunch of coups by "democratic" parties in, say, Africa, until the leaders decides he'd rather be rich dictator and cancels elections. The only beneficial governmental revolution I can think of off hand is the American one, but that doesn't count, because it wasn't against the local government but a faraway power--and nationalist revolutions do sometimes work.

Also, there ARE coincidences. Yuck. What a dumb movie.

[EatMine]

Can someone please tell me when any revolution by "freedom fighters" led to a better government or society?Matrix 3.
And the Sexual Revolution comes to mind (though I still get none).

I think I see your point, but you can't say none of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions) succeeded ...
In the end it always comes down to who you're gonna ask ... the winning freedom fighter or the former regime, or the losing terrorist or the prevailing government, you know that. Sad but true.
If you name your "better society", I'll name the appropriate "revolution" :)

Yuck. What a dumb movie.Dammit, I was kinda looking forward to watching it.

[Cliche]

Dammit, I was kinda looking forward to watching it.

Watch it for entertainment if not for anything else.

[Anarchy_United]

I think you're just confused. There's this awesome new movie coming out where Angelina Jolie is a king or something and fights monsters, and that's based very loosely off of a book by Stephen King I think. Or Charles Dickens. I oft confuse the two.

So yeah, thats probably the one you're thinking of.

Beowulf? The British piece of Literature that was first wrote down in 1300's, but was part of an oral tradition much longer?


Your description sounds abour right though.

[Anarchy_United]

Haha. I watched VfV right now because of this thread. The writing sucks (how stupid is the whiny girl! "Let me go home and get tortured." And V throws daggers at people...right...), but I guess that's not the point. They have no idea how to run a terrorist organization (hint: you need more than one terrorist. Why do you think they have suicide bombers?) and even less how to run a fascist government (make sure your chief intelligence officer is in with the plot, you know).

Can someone please tell me when any revolution by "freedom fighters" led to a better government or society? French Revolution replaced a horrible monarchy first with the reign of terror and later with a murderous imperialist. Soviet revolution replaced a sucky Czarism with one of the most murderous regimes in history. Every decade there are a bunch of coups by "democratic" parties in, say, Africa, until the leaders decides he'd rather be rich dictator and cancels elections. The only beneficial governmental revolution I can think of off hand is the American one, but that doesn't count, because it wasn't against the local government but a faraway power--and nationalist revolutions do sometimes work.

Also, there ARE coincidences. Yuck. What a dumb movie.

Thats why I never watch political movies with my friends, because it always ends with me shouting at them how stupid the message is and how stupid they are for believing it.

One of my friends is always telling me I would love V for Vendetta, and I keep on telling him I will hate it and end up screaming stuff the entire movie. I don't like movies with a message in general, because the message is always stupid.

[The Cheat]

VFV was a great book and movie.

Its message rings true.


The time for revolution is now.

[Realist]

Matrix 3.
And the Sexual Revolution comes to mind (though I still get none).

The sexual revolution is a great example. Not a violent overthrow of the government, but a peaceful cultural movement resulting in a more tolerant and presumably happier society. That's the way society improves, usually, not violent rebellion.

I think I see your point, but you can't say none of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions) succeeded ...

I haven't heard of most of those...but I can't think of a single instance where a violent overthrow of a local (not foreign) regime resulted in a better society. It's possible that it has a couple of times in history, though. ;) I am most knowledgeable of Europe and the US...I can't think of a single liberal democracy that came into being through violent revolution against a local power. Like I said, the French Revolution was a great failure. Spain left absolutism not as a result of its civil war, but by the peaceful actions of its king after Franco died. English modern democracy can perhaps be said to have started with the Glorious Revolution, known for its lack of blood (in contrast to the very violent civil war, purportedly against Royal absolutism, but which in actuality replaced king with Puritan dictator). Italy, Germany, and Japan became liberal democracies as a result of losing WWII. Even Communist USSR fell without much violence. Anyone have a counterexample?

[monkus]

Haha. I watched VfV right now because of this thread. The writing sucks (how stupid is the whiny girl! "Let me go home and get tortured." And V throws daggers at people...right...), but I guess that's not the point. They have no idea how to run a terrorist organization (hint: you need more than one terrorist. Why do you think they have suicide bombers?) and even less how to run a fascist government (make sure your chief intelligence officer is in with the plot, you know).

Evy made some stupid decisions, but there's no reason why a person in her position wouldn't. If you were kidnapped, chances are you'd prioritize escaping from them first, and you might forget about the other dangers. Evy might also not have known the full extent of the government's craziness either (she would know of it, but not nearly as well as V). Finally, we make much better decisions in our armchairs (metaphorical) than on the spot, in the situation, with everything going on. We might also be smarter than her character is supposed to be.
V's choice of weapons and whatnot is just hollywood. It's not important as you know.
In terms of the chief intelligence officer, I think he represents the corrupted but not fully evil, i.e. those that can be brought back over. The fact that he's chief intelligence officer is a little silly, but I'd imagine there were higher ranking officials who were in on it, just maybe with less prestigious names.


Can someone please tell me when any revolution by "freedom fighters" led to a better government or society? French Revolution replaced a horrible monarchy first with the reign of terror and later with a murderous imperialist. Soviet revolution replaced a sucky Czarism with one of the most murderous regimes in history. Every decade there are a bunch of coups by "democratic" parties in, say, Africa, until the leaders decides he'd rather be rich dictator and cancels elections. The only beneficial governmental revolution I can think of off hand is the American one, but that doesn't count, because it wasn't against the local government but a faraway power--and nationalist revolutions do sometimes work.

Also, there ARE coincidences. Yuck. What a dumb movie.

First, I don't think the message is "revolt", I think it's "The government should be afraid of it's people." Once again, it is my feeling that if President Bush were more afraid of the people using their political powers he would be much more hesitant to violate civil liberties. Furthermore I hardly think this counts as a truly violent revolution, considering how few people really died. Plus, if you look into English history, a number of revolutions at least seem a bit more pleasant than the examples you brought up. Furthermore, to be completely honest, there haven't really been enough revolutions in history to make an assessment of that nature, and I can't think of a single revolution that was this idealistic either.

I'm sorry if this post is overly critical though. You raise good points Realist and I definitely reconsidered the movie based on them. I just still like it.

I thought the movie was entertaining, and it conveyed an interesting political message that ought to be taken more generally than simply how the movie conveyed it. I happened to like it.

[Hugh Junit]

I liked it, too, but I'm not burdened with the need to have a movie be completely believable or ground in reality in order for me to find it entertaining.
Especially if it's a fictional, futuristic, action film based on a comic book series.
:)

[Realist]

Evy made some stupid decisions, but there's no reason why a person in her position wouldn't.

The issue isn't whether the movie is a realistic portrayal of human character (it isn't). The issue is--why make V's sidekick some completely imbecilic woman? The deeper issue is--why is it that, in a supposedly anti-fascist movie, the will and power of a single individual the entire force behind the overthrow of a government (a point highlighted most strikingly when a bunch of people in what amounts to KKK suits march in unison at the end)?

EV's will isn't her own. She surrenders it entirely to V. She's portrayed as silly whenever she tries to flee him--confiding in a pedophile!--and it's portrayed as a good thing when she falls in love with V as her sadistic torturer. The movie does not question whether V might be wrong, he is right, and it is EV's role to accept his position, however crazy it may be, in representation of the viewer accepting his position. VfV is a fascist movie.

Orwell's best book wasn't 1984. 1984 actually sucks, and for proof you only need to note all the idiots quoting it. Orwell's best book was Animal Farm. The pigs are men, the men are pigs. VfV celebrates the creation of men from pigs--V claims to be made a monster from monsters, but the movie gives him a hero's death. According to the movie, the best answer to a government killings its own people to gain power is for rebels to kill the people they claim to be fighting for to gain power. VfV is a dumb, fascist movie.

V's choice of weapons and whatnot is just hollywood. It's not important as you know.

Of course it's important. The clearest message of the movie is that the answer to superman government is batman vigilantism. This message is supremely, astronomically, silly. Making V throw knives and do karate enforce this message. Real rebels are pragmatic if nothing else. Or they fail. Real rebels use roadside bombs.

Plus, if you look into English history, a number of revolutions at least seem a bit more pleasant than the examples you brought up.

Yes. It's called the Glorious Revolution, also known as the bloodless revolution. According to wikipedia it wasn't actually bloodless, but it was pretty close (the government transition was bloodless). Like I said last post, compare the English Civil war, which accomplished nothing but was far more deadly.

[uniquinous]

Things to do:

-learn to throw knives
-do karaties
-overthrow stuff
-read more Orwell

[Cavour]

Beowulf? The British piece of Literature that was first wrote down in 1300's, but was part of an oral tradition much longer?


Your description sounds abour right though.

*sigh*

Am I trying too hard? Am I just really not that funny?

:(

Things to do:

-learn to throw knives
-do karaties
-overthrow stuff
-read more Orwell

QFT.

[Hugh Junit]

Am I trying too hard? Am I just really not that funny?


Don't do that to yourself, Cav, Don't you dare.
It went over AU's head, but I was right there with ya.