Turtle Strategy Idea?

[Pedro]

Ok, Im sitting here bored as hell and thought of this idea of a maybe decent strategy someone could pull off with enough practice, maybe?

On the side note, I have been away from TAO for awhile so i dont know if this idea had been brought up, and searching it would get me no where cause im sure i wouldnt find it directly.

Anyways, I thought of a game plan for a possible to use turtle strat.
I'm sure anyone who turtles knows the basic turtle cluster and if you dont it looks like this. ( By the way this is the form is use, made up from a great turtler but i dont remember who)

[Cleric][Stone][Frosty]
[Scout][Wisp][Scout]
[Muddy]
[Knight]
[Dragon]

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5604/setupbq7.png ( picture of setup )

My idea is, instead of having the knight infront of the muddy, why not replace it with the Assassin? Not for the simple attack anything around it doing crappy damage, but the great assassin bomb killing anything in one it.I mean sure it commits suicide, but the possibility of killing 1 or multiple units can cause a great victory in turtle match, especially killing a dragon,mud, or scout right off the bat.

I know for all the years ive been playing TAO and turtle matches, i havent seen anyone use an Assassin before like that. Maybe i havent because its a stupid and ridiculous idea? Or nobody has had the will to try it? To use this i know you would have to be great with the damage calculations, and strategies on which units can cause the activation of the bomb, but if all goes well, the game could be yours due to the assassin.

Tell me what you guys think, critisize all you want, im prepared for it. Thanks if you read this, give me some ideas.

[Pedro]

Sorry for the double post, but the muddy and knight are meant to be moved over to the right infront of the wisp!

[bobo99]

You can edit it.. And people don't do that because their is simply too much range in gold game to pull it off effectively. Most of all being the Mud Golem, that thing would stop it with ease.

[Pedro]

Yeah i know i just tried to but im to gimp to fix it apparently.
And yeah ive been playing for along time to realize the ranged units invovled, but thats why you dont setup the bomb right away, i mean if you were to get rid of the opponents mud golem, it would be simpler.

And also in turt games usually the knight is left in the same position it started in for almost half the game, so why couldnt the assassin be either, and if the assassin is hit by dragon, just heal. Then say assassin is hit again by the mud golem and brought down to 4 health, there the bomb is activated enabling you to take out the opponents dragon.

[Megabyte]

screenshot the setup and post it in that original post, usually the idea comes a bit more to fruition (and better suggestions from others) when you're actually looking at it as opposed to just theorizing it in text

[Pedro]

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8594/taouu4.png

Hopefully everyone is abled to open that link and it works, it should.

Anyways i decided to try out the idea i had come up with. For about most of the game like i said, my assassin stayed in the same spot, until i moved it outward to kill Lost.Boys dragon. He didnt touch it all game because i had pressured him through-out the game and forced him to pay attention to my dragon, scouts, and muddy. I had killed his muddy early on in the game so i didnt have to worry about him quaking. All in all, towards the end of the game he had a knight with about 20 health, stoney with 1 health. I had wisp with 2 health, cleric, stoney and assassin with 23.

I used the wisp to poison his knight AND my assassin, hence my assassin with 23 health. I moved my wisp away to the corner, so he attacked my assassin, therefore activating my bomb FTW. I realize if i bombed his knight but not his stoney, it would end up in draw, but i wasnt going to let that happen.

I would have to say this strategy would be for more of the expert players to use, meaning you have to know damage calculation, knowledge of not going for the bomb in beginning of the game etc..

[Megabyte]

Agreed that it'd be an advanced tactic. In line with using it taking advanced skill though, an advanced opponent makes it a lot harder to be useful.

Seems reasonable enough, but personally I've never put much stock in using the assassin bomb attack. Reliability behind getting it to be worthwhile has been iffy for me, and it's always been relatively simple to stop it (even if setup defensively, simple pummeling with range tends to put it's threat to rest).




Myself, I'd say that the tactic aside, I'd move that muddy to switch it with the scout in front of your cleric. Muddy = no block, so the harder to get to him, the better. Sorta out of the scope of your tactic discussion though.

[Pedro]

Yeahh i just battled death rico with the assassin turtle setup, and won. It seems that if the opponent plays defensively, the assassin can help alot with the long ranged movement, and mutliple attacks to whoever is around it.

And yeah i realize if i play a 1700+ opponent and they see im using assassin, they will try and stop it first thing. But all im saying is KILL THE OPPONENTS MUDDY FIRST THING. And i dont see a big issue with this setup, im starting to kinda like it lol.

If your a pro using this assassin turtle form, youll know what to look out for, where to position the assassin etc.. And say if assassin is at 26 health, and gets mud quaked, bringing it down to like 11 or whatever, just run the assassin back and the odds are it will block cause of the 70% blocking it has, if your opponent goes to hit assassin with scout.

[Megabyte]

Yah, I could definitely see this being successful primarily against a turtle. A bomb would just be able to blast the assassin fairly quickly, or a rush.


It's good concept setups like this that make me an advocate of defensive spreads ;)

[Pedro]

Yah, I could definitely see this being successful primarily against a turtle. A bomb would just be able to blast the assassin fairly quickly, or a rush.


It's good concept setups like this that make me an advocate of defensive spreads ;)

Yeahhh there would be no way in hell i would use assassin in my freestyle form, having it being rushed would just suck, thats why im saying it would be good for turtle..

And i appreciate your opinions mega, just hoping we could get some more :bigsmile:

[Megabyte]

psst, go submit it in the formation database and put your name to it :p

[Pedro]

Alright i posted it. Come on people give me some opinions here!

[-57-]

I like the concept, and with the wisp, if it's late game and you've taken out there range it could be huge, but at the same time, there are so many variables...

But definantly good to see new ideas at least :)

[Megabyte]

and you have to actually click the link to the database to submit it :p not just post it into the thread linking to said database ;)

Makes a good format for comments and rating for people, plus you can check out other setups.

[Pedro]

Yeahhh well oops my bad mega lol, ill be sure to do just that..

Yeah having the assassin instead of knight in turtle is so much different, involving so much different types of strategy. But if you think about it, this form gives the opponent another EXTRA thing to worry about!

[A-99]

I would never use the assassin in a turtle. Two hits its dead with the exception of two archers. Knights, dragons, and archers can all combine in a two hit combo and the assassin is dead. Say you stone it? worse. You just gave up a valuable spot that could have been used for a mud,wisp, archer or dragon. I guess IF you did get rid of the opponents range, then it could be alright, but any decent player won't fall for the bomb. Any decent player would kill the the assassin and not leave it to the end.

[Pedro]

I would never use the assassin in a turtle. Two hits its dead with the exception of two archers. Knights, dragons, and archers can all combine in a two hit combo and the assassin is dead. Say you stone it? worse. You just gave up a valuable spot that could have been used for a mud,wisp, archer or dragon. I guess IF you did get rid of the opponents range, then it could be alright, but any decent player won't fall for the bomb. Any decent player would kill the the assassin and not leave it to the end.

Yeah but your thinking of it differently.. Of course i realize all these combos can kill the assassin, i have been playing this game for quite awhile and thought about the combos and blah blah blah.. In my last game against Hot Action Cop, he first hit my sassy with the dragon, bring it to 10 health. I then healed bringing it to 22. He moved up his muddy to quake bringing me to 13 health. What i did was move my muddy 2 spaces away from my assassin and quaked, bringing it to 4 health.

At this point, the dragon and muddy are at 2 wait turn, and hes got 2 free scouts to use. YES he can go for the 30% frontal on my assassin and hope he hits, but its almost like trying to hit a knight from the front, almost all the time it wont work. If my sassy blocked, which it did, I coulda bombed both his muddy and dragon right there, but the server had crashed. :p

[Megabyte]

I would never use the assassin in a turtle. Two hits its dead with the exception of two archers. Knights, dragons, and archers can all combine in a two hit combo and the assassin is dead. Say you stone it? worse. You just gave up a valuable spot that could have been used for a mud,wisp, archer or dragon. I guess IF you did get rid of the opponents range, then it could be alright, but any decent player won't fall for the bomb. Any decent player would kill the the assassin and not leave it to the end.

THAT'S the sorta simple minded thinking that will make you lose matches. Don't dismiss a tactic out of hand, because there's no such thing as a guarantee in this game.

I actually tested this setup concept with my roommate earlier today. Despite knowing what tactic he would work with, he manged to hit me with the assassin bomb in 3 of the 5 matches. A pretty good average, considering we just hashed together his setups.

Still wouldn't use the concept myself, because it just doesn't suit my play style, but I definitely find it an interesting main tactic. Try branching out some in your setups, hopefully you'll learn something.

[Pedro]

THAT'S the sorta simple minded thinking that will make you lose matches. Don't dismiss a tactic out of hand, because there's no such thing as a guarantee in this game.

I actually tested this setup concept with my roommate earlier today. Despite knowing what tactic he would work with, he manged to hit me with the assassin bomb in 3 of the 5 matches. A pretty good average, considering we just hashed together his setups.

Still wouldn't use the concept myself, because it just doesn't suit my play style, but I definitely find it an interesting main tactic. Try branching out some in your setups, hopefully you'll learn something.

Yeah i agree, you would probably have to be into that sorta style of play to use it, but this setup really does work!

[monkus]

Here's the issue:
It's a lot harder to manage your assassin's health when it's not stoned. I understand you've had some relative success, but a knowledgeable player will save an unblockable unit just in case for that purpose. I.e.: I'm going to leave my muddy around and not use it so if you do manage to get your assassin down to bomb range, I can kill it guaranteed. The example you gave of hitting it with a dragon and then a muddy is an example of a bad move. I might just not use my dragon as long as your assassin is alive, which I will make sure it won't be soon enough. If you yourself get it down to 3 health, I'll dragon blast it. I'm willing to save my dragon for a little bit to prevent the bomb.

[Megabyte]

The solution to that issue would be to avoid damaging the assassin in advance, and re-examining it's use.

You could reset the unit composition in that particular setup to give it more of a melee muscle. Then you could charge your opponent using a combo of knights/scouts/stoned assassin.

It takes some of the emphasis off the assassin, itself, but makes it so that the option of the bomb is still viable. You'd have it taking damage (and could realistically set it to take a brunt of the attacks), and still be keeping some backup there to help support and position.


This could help stop those pesky casters and keep the dragon in check. You won't just sit there on the dragon while an assassin AND a knight (maybe scout too) wail on it. You know, force your opponent to react to the attack, rather than letting it be a damage calc game of chance.

[Wrath]

Hm, while I do belive the possible damage of the assassin, the ability of getting the bomb off vrs a more experinced player is less then doubtfull. So why not just change it for a br?

[Hoolwath]

Assasin is too easy to kill, especially sameside. It would not have much of a use opposite sides aswell, because even if you did prepare the bomb, one healing you could need would ruin it for you and make it useless.

The only real use I can see is moving it strategically near a place you are intending to mudquake next turn and bring it down to a bomb that way. Mudquaking where you need and setting up the bomb, making the opponent choose between two moves that could be crucial. And even very experienced players do not see that happen most of the time.

[chickenfeather]

blah...blah...blah

What crap!

[Pedro]

I dont think you guys see the point.. your thinking to much on killing the assassin when in a real turtle game you would be focussed on the opponents scouts and mud golem, NOT the assassin, BUT if it were same side turts, if the sassy was damaged just HEAL and it will be back to 20+ health. Im guessing the opponent would use their muddy to bring it to around 10 health. OR as monkus said they would save their muddy or dragon and not use them until assassin was dead. IF you were to save the powerhouse units like that in turtle game, would force me to be aggressive and rush the hell out of you.

[Hoolwath]

I dont think you guys see the point.. your thinking to much on killing the assassin when in a real turtle game you would be focussed on the opponents scouts and mud golem, NOT the assassin, BUT if it were same side turts, if the sassy was damaged just HEAL and it will be back to 20+ health. Im guessing the opponent would use their muddy to bring it to around 10 health. OR as monkus said they would save their muddy or dragon and not use them until assassin was dead. IF you were to save the powerhouse units like that in turtle game, would force me to be aggressive and rush the hell out of you.

Nah, not really.

I would focus on the most vulnerable unit... that is with scouts, wisp and muddy being stoned... the assassin.

[chickenfeather]

this is pathetic. delete this thread

[Megabyte]

Largely agreed with Hool on tactics, but again it's not a foolproof. Playing against a skilled player whom I KNEW would use the assassin aggressively, it still makes a difference.

Oddly enough, I found the wisp the most useful in terms of stopping it. Stonied, well planned, and with healing support, the assassin can basically be a "visible threat" without being used for much of the match. The wisp is the only reliable way to stop it from attacking for that extra turn, to throw off your opponents plan.

What crap!

Must be sad to not actually have the intelligence to make a point or a thought on the topics.

If you ever want to learn something, pm me and we can talk. I'm not above helping simpletons enlighten themselves.

[chickenfeather]

megabyte....

go to school.....
the chicken is more enlightened than a computer chip.....

in some countries they use you as toilets... sorry megabyte i wasn't referring to you... i didn't know toilets spoke... that is something i learnt without pm'ing you retard...
PMSing u... if you have pms meet biwas biswas...

most suck to not having the intelligence to make a point maybe...but you...you just suck...

[Megabyte]

That was an unusual level of retard hostility directed at me, even by my standards. I'm guessing that English isn't your primary language?

While I can sympathize, and would even be willing to try talking in a few other languages, retards who are arses aren't really my forte. Try again when you can make a complete sentence in english. But for now just another name of a fool for the ol' ignore list. Have fun out there, kid.

[chickenfeather]

That was an unusual level of retard hostility directed at me, even by my standards. I'm guessing that English isn't your primary language?


It is retarded hostility you retard. you learn english first. those who live in stone houses should not throw glasses. the glass will break... hohohoho...


While I can sympathize, and would even be willing to try talking in a few other languages, retards who are arses aren't really my forte. Try again when you can make a complete sentence in english. But for now just another name of a fool for the ol' ignore list. Have fun out there, kid.

cluck cluck pluck pluck cluck cluck pluck... translated in your english... you you suck suck you you suck

[chickenfeather]

btw., megabite... do you know what biwas biswas means?

[Megabyte]

It is retarded hostility you retard. you learn english first.

Ah, against my better judgment, but because some other grammar whore wanted to try and rub me on it.

No, it's retard hostility. Like Suni hostility, or minority hostility, except just a little dumber and a lot less capable of making a coherent sentence.

Retarded hostility would imply that only the person's statements were retarded. Retard implies that the person is. I'm sure you'll catch on, as the original statement implied you're just a little slow (or more than a little, who can say?).



Ok, now I promise not to push the kid anymore. Really.

[chickenfeather]

omg you actually spent one hour to research your grammar and make a 10 line post? wow... have i ever seen a more pathetic dork? go get a life and stop trying to prove your superiority in a forum where no one cares...or is it that you are too ugly for anyone in real life to take you seriously? hmmm interesting case study for psychologist...or is it psychiatrist? and, oh it is so cool to talk to imaginary people on forums...again dude, NO ONE is listening... NO ONE cares!

[Pedro]

Ok chicken feather, i made this post for people to examine the idea and give me their opinions, not for you to harrass Megabyte, He is a respected player and member of the forums, i dont think very many people know and respect you. Half the things you have said make no sense, so please stop posting in this thread if you are going to continue your nonsense.

I rest my case.

[chickenfeather]

Okay Pedro. What is your primary strategy going to be if you are going to use a bomb? Unless your opponent is going to be highly defensive (furgon, not extending the range units, etc.), I don't see the point of the assassin in the early or middle game. However, once in the end game (if you manage to keep it alive that long - it is a mud+scout or quake+dragon kill when unstoned) it could be deadly, especially when you have exchanged muds and broken the stone's focus. I have played with such sets long back (I have tried it with a barrier too just for the heck of it), and it is nice. But not the most practical. It puts you on the defensive too early and you lose momentum wasting moves with the assassin. And, if you are unfortunate to get a same side turt, it ends up being a pretty pointless piece. Just my 2 cents.

[imagination]

i really really like this idea actually. The way i see it is the assassin is an extra range unit if needed. The truth is that, as pedro said, most people dont even use the knight anyways until later. Adding the assassin is a give and take thing. You lose hp, a minute blocking percentage, and 4 power which in the whole scheme of things isn't huge but can make a difference in some cases. In return you get extra range and the ability/chance to trade it for a much more vauluable peice + the opponent now has something to be cautious of when they are quaking or even attacking at all which means they may have to change their strategy which can be a huge factor.

[pils]

No sure if its been said already, and I don't feel like looking. But....... There is just to much range in gold... You have a mud, 2 scouts, dragon, frost, and sometimes wisp. All of those are capable of slowing down an assassin enough to kill it.

[Pedro]

No sure if its been said already, and I don't feel like looking. But....... There is just to much range in gold... You have a mud, 2 scouts, dragon, frost, and sometimes wisp. All of those are capable of slowing down an assassin enough to kill it.

Yeah i agree. But ill say this to make it easier to understand.

Muddy - Goes in for the quake to unstone cluster giving it 2 wait turn
Dragon ( if used on assassin )- has got 3 wait turn leaving it vulnerable to bomb.
Wisp- IS ABLE TO paralyze and poison assassin bringing it to ONE health, but the bomb is still activated.

IF this assassin is poisoned by wisp you have 2 choices by MY SETUP. You can either 1: Move the assassin back a few and face forwards to go for the frontal block which would be likely, Or 2: Paralyze wisp with the frost in the back of the turtle.

There are all so many ways to get passed the opponents RANGED units and keeping your assassin alive. I guess ill just have to battle some of you with this form, to really show you its capablities and to show the weaknesses of a form are harder done than said.

[pils]

Yeah i agree. But ill say this to make it easier to understand.

Muddy - Goes in for the quake to unstone cluster giving it 2 wait turn
Dragon ( if used on assassin )- has got 3 wait turn leaving it vulnerable to bomb.
Wisp- IS ABLE TO paralyze and poison assassin bringing it to ONE health, but the bomb is still activated.

IF this assassin is poisoned by wisp you have 2 choices by MY SETUP. You can either 1: Move the assassin back a few and face forwards to go for the frontal block which would be likely, Or 2: Paralyze wisp with the frost in the back of the turtle.

There are all so many ways to get passed the opponents RANGED units and keeping your assassin alive. I guess ill just have to battle some of you with this form, to really show you its capablities and to show the weaknesses of a form are harder done than said.

The vital flaw in all of those you listed is NONE of those units will ever attack alone. And if they do, well thats like using some weird 9 unit set to beat some noob grey. When it comes to games in which both players have skill, I don't see the assassin being much of an asset.

You could play me, and I would be open to a turt game vs that set, but I don't turt.... So beating me with that set wouldn't mean much. But I will tell you this, I wouldn't let you use assassin bomb.

[Pedro]

The vital flaw in all of those you listed is NONE of those units will ever attack alone. And if they do, well thats like using some weird 9 unit set to beat some noob grey. When it comes to games in which both players have skill, I don't see the assassin being much of an asset.

You could play me, and I would be open to a turt game vs that set, but I don't turt.... So beating me with that set wouldn't mean much. But I will tell you this, I wouldn't let you use assassin bomb.

Lol yeah i know your good with disabling the assassin cause your great grey player. But say if you shoot your muddy up to quake my assassin, Ill freeze with my frost golem correct? So either way if you focus on killing my assassin as everyone is saying because you wouldnt let me bomb, ill just focus on killing your mud. Simple as that.

[Megabyte]

No sure if its been said already, and I don't feel like looking. But....... There is just to much range in gold... You have a mud, 2 scouts, dragon, frost, and sometimes wisp. All of those are capable of slowing down an assassin enough to kill it.

Unwilling to re-iterate my points in the previous posts just because you're unwilling to read them :p

I'll just re-state that after testing this concept against a skilled player (my roomate), I've come to accept it as a legitimate main use tactic in a lineup (in the confines of this setup type). Hardly fool-proof, but what is these days? I wouldn't use it, but my preferred setups and play style is VERY conservative.

[Wisher]

It is retarded hostility you retard. you learn english first. those who live in stone houses should not throw glasses. the glass will break... hohohoho...


I took out the cluck pluck thing because that was just..weird.

Ok thens, I really feel that it is those who live in glass houses should not throw stone, the glass will break. Makes more sense imo.

About the sassy: I think it would be pretty good end game, but mid game it's gonna get easily mudquaked and paralyzed if it goes into the bomb. BUt i do see it as a great tactic to disable other freezing effects so maybe if your muddy is frozen, only 1 wait turn=quick unfrozen. It'd be pretty sweet to own the turt with bomb though. GL with the set man.

[Pedro]

I took out the cluck pluck thing because that was just..weird.

Ok thens, I really feel that it is those who live in glass houses should not throw stone, the glass will break. Makes more sense imo.

About the sassy: I think it would be pretty good end game, but mid game it's gonna get easily mudquaked and paralyzed if it goes into the bomb. BUt i do see it as a great tactic to disable other freezing effects so maybe if your muddy is frozen, only 1 wait turn=quick unfrozen. It'd be pretty sweet to own the turt with bomb though. GL with the set man.

Thank you, i appreciate the positivity :bigsmile:

[Nitanius Nolund]

Like pils, I didnt bother to read the whole thread, so I may be mistaken too. Here's the thing, the knight is a better choice because it is more robust and helps a lot more than the assassin in same side games. Granted, assassin bombs come in handy, but in same side the odds of you being able to do so are very limited, because of the great deal of ranged units. In opp sides you have more of a chance, but if it fails, you've wasted a unit in my opinion. A knight can take a beating, an assassin really can't.

I like how you tried to change things up a bit Pedro, but I just think the knight is tactfully the better option.

[Megabyte]

Like pils, I didnt bother to read the whole thread, so I may be mistaken too.

Then stop and read it.

In a tactics discussion (or discussions in general), if you jump in and throw out a point without bothering to read the rest of it you could very likely (and you are in this case) just tossing out the exact argument that's been discussed for pages.


Don't even bother making a comment pertinent to the discussion unless you're willing to follow the discussion, because you're just wasting everyone's (yours included) time.

[Boom! Headshot.]

if you, for some odd reason, just happen to be using a bw, you could back shoot the sassy, barrier it, then wisp it. the poison goes through the barrier, but nothing else does (except frosty/chanty). ^_^

[Megabyte]

of course they'd probably go for the wisp, but that's a pretty good call still, haven't seen anyone wisp'ing it through the barrier

[Pedro]

if you, for some odd reason, just happen to be using a bw, you could back shoot the sassy, barrier it, then wisp it. the poison goes through the barrier, but nothing else does (except frosty/chanty). ^_^

Yeah that would be another good tactic to use, though id think you would want to kill the dragon forsure seeing as it counts as 2 units and you would be giving up assassin AND wisp, or killing 2 other units say muddy + scout.

I mean if you wanted to use the barrier you COULD take out the dragon, throw in BW, and put furgon, knight. But that might make it a little bit too defensive.

[Boom! Headshot.]

im just throwing out ideas ^_^

[-57-]

The problem I think with the BW idea is now you're spending to many units on the assassin bomb, I mean if you have BW and assassin, and assassin gets 2 units (this is assuming a lot) and the BW probably isn't used for much else, then you used 2 units to kill 2 units, and you never had a DT to begin with..

Idk if you follow what I'm saying, but it sounds to me like so much would need to happen, and even then... idk, just BW seems like over kill ;)

[Pedro]

The problem I think with the BW idea is now you're spending to many units on the assassin bomb, I mean if you have BW and assassin, and assassin gets 2 units (this is assuming a lot) and the BW probably isn't used for much else, then you used 2 units to kill 2 units, and you never had a DT to begin with..

Idk if you follow what I'm saying, but it sounds to me like so much would need to happen, and even then... idk, just BW seems like over kill ;)

Yes lets stick to the idea without the BW

[xEaglex]

Having a sin replace a knight is not a horrible idea at all. If the opponent slips up once, it could cost him the game.

Thing is, there are two ways of looking at the idea. If both players are top tier, then no, the idea is not great. Both players will always be paying attention, and the chance of a slip-up is slim. In a perfect game or near-perfect game, with no slip ups, a knight is more useful.

However, against most mid-level players and even casual higher level ones, I think the sin could catch someone off-guard and take out a key unit at a key time. Thing is, in a gold game, there are SOOO many ways to get the sin under 5 hp so you've gotta watch it.

I played the set in a same side game, and once I focused on endangering the low hp sin, my mud was allowed to move the magical 5 spaces up for an instant de-stone. A knight would have prevented that much easier.

[Pedro]

Having a sin replace a knight is not a horrible idea at all. If the opponent slips up once, it could cost him the game.

Thing is, there are two ways of looking at the idea. If both players are top tier, then no, the idea is not great. Both players will always be paying attention, and the chance of a slip-up is slim. In a perfect game or near-perfect game, with no slip ups, a knight is more useful.

However, against most mid-level players and even casual higher level ones, I think the sin could catch someone off-guard and take out a key unit at a key time. Thing is, in a gold game, there are SOOO many ways to get the sin under 5 hp so you've gotta watch it.

I played the set in a same side game, and once I focused on endangering the low hp sin, my mud was allowed to move the magical 5 spaces up for an instant de-stone. A knight would have prevented that much easier.

Youve made a good point.. In that situation i will have to focus on re-stoning with close by units to regain balance in the battle. Im sure there are ways that can make this happen, i just need more practice with the form. Thanks for the input, always appreciated. :bigsmile:

[monkus]

I suppose my complaints with this idea still reference good players playing, but it is still my belief that:
If your opponent is not trying to kill your assassin at the moment, chances are they will not be dealing large amounts of damage to it. Therefore, you will need to spend the time bringing down the assassin, and wasting turns is never a good idea, in a time when your opponent could focus on your muddy or scout. Plus it'll be really obvious what you're doing and your opponent can easily prepare a counter.
If your opponent is going for the assassin, (s)he'll simply save the unblockables for later (and count damage in advance). Now, I can see a great counter to this being you run away at the perfect time and then use that damage and your own to make it bomb ready, but then you have to move it BACK and your opponent can once again prepare a counter.
I still think stoning the assassin is the only way to pull off the bomb against a good opponent. It gives you a lot more leeway getting there and a lot more chances that your opponent's attacks will bring it down to bomb range but won't kill it.
I also like the Knight more, in general, because it dishes out some nice damage, plus it's great for blocking off attackers without you having to worry about it dying.
You should never use a strategy that's meant to only work on mediocre opponents. You shouldn't even be planning for mediocre opponents. You plan for the ones that will give you trouble, and the ones that won't will come easily.

[Megabyte]

Reversely to your idea of a skilled player using the concept, monkus, I doubt a skilled player making use of it would be so reliant and straightforward in it's use. Whatever people rate my own skill at these days, at least I wouldn't make such a straight use of the concept.


For example, if I was using a stoned assassin in concept I'd be using it in conjunction with a melee based offense. I've been toying with more substantial forms of offensive setups, using a stony. Particularly in conjunction with a lot of melee units.

IF I used this concept, I'd use a similar setup to the original linked setup, except replacing the dragon with 2 knights, and possibly exchanging out the wisp for something else of more defensive substance (maybe even the frosty).

If you're going to be using the assassin bomb tactic as a specific concept in the setup, even with a stony, you need to accept that it's not going to be a heavy defense setup. It simply doesn't work to have the idea sit back there and wait till the end. So, 2 knights to give more units to be able to react to over the dragon, and the elimination of the wisp so I'd be too tempted to sacrifice it in a move to let my assassin get close and do it's thing. Spending 2 units specifically to pull of the bomb would make it too reliant a tactic in my setup, imo.

Here's what I'd go with (maybe)...
1 - barrier ward thrown in to make the bomb a bit more feasible, also just a general unit protector
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9310/assassinturt1lz8.jpg

2 - Bit more classic, sans the Frosty but with Furgon there to help discourage charging units on the side. Gives you more focus time for your attack to work and offensive power with the LW as additional deterrent.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4342/assassinturt2cn1.jpg

So, stony up the main group, and send out the knights, assassin, scouts, and whatever you want in support. Specifically make sure the assassin has at LEAST 2 other units going on the offensive (with 1 scout in there). With a heavy melee based attack, and multiple units, it forces your opponent to react to more than 1 threat. They can't focus on the assassin, and I won't damage it initially to give away the tactic (and also keep my opponent guessing when/if I'll use it for that purpose).

That way, you have 2 types of offensive attack going on. You can use the bomb if the opportunity presents itself early on, and cause that big hit, then capitalize with your other attacking units. If it's not looking like a good move, then you can focus in on just the more standard melee based assault, with the added twist of the stonied assassin thrown (would work well at cutting away at turtles, furgon setups, or bombs with a lot of casters).



Note, still not arguing value of the assassin over the knight, just playing devil's advocate ;) If you're going to assume high skill of the opponent, then you're not going to leave things to chance (as much as possible).

[Pedro]

Oooooh i like those setups mega, i think im going to try some of your ideas out with the 2 knights, and focus on killing my opponents dragon. That would be sweet, thanks for the ideas :)

[bludhoundz]

The biggest problem with assassin in turtle is the range. The reason the assassin bomb works wonders in grey is due to so little range. Turtle is practically all range, and with some unblockable range (mud, dragon, or frost and wisp to delay for a kill) the assassin bomb gets harder to pull off.

Start by trying it against a legends grey - yeah, it can be done, but a good one won't let you do it or gain very much from it. In turtle it's going to be more difficult to pull off, though more successful if you can.

I'd just steer clear of it entirely.

[Pedro]

The biggest problem with assassin in turtle is the range. The reason the assassin bomb works wonders in grey is due to so little range. Turtle is practically all range, and with some unblockable range (mud, dragon, or frost and wisp to delay for a kill) the assassin bomb gets harder to pull off.

Start by trying it against a legends grey - yeah, it can be done, but a good one won't let you do it or gain very much from it. In turtle it's going to be more difficult to pull off, though more successful if you can.

I'd just steer clear of it entirely.

Lol we've already talked about the ranged units in gold turtle games, but there are ways to get past them.

[imagination]

i logged on last night to test some things that came to mind while reading this. i tested it in freestyle instead of turtle but the results would have been the same in my opinion. first i tried a turtle with a bw against a same side rush and was demolished. Now i wasnt looking at how the game ended (when testing sets i never look at the end but instead how the set "moved" and worked). The thing was it was extremely hard to give up turns to set up the bomb and not actually go for better moves and so i never actually had a chance to bomb them.

Next game (i was playing a clanmate so i had them use the exact same set) i set up a sort of anti that also had an lw (looked somewhat like a grey form with gold units) that actually did really really well. I still lost the game but it was to a 14 hp knight that was next to my lw when it got the final side shot. Still, i wouldnt trust the form to anyone that wasnt at least very very good at playing defensive sets because there simply was no way i was going to be able to go out and play offense against an opp side form.

next game exact same sets but now opposite sides. i was right. no way to play opp sides and with him being smart and mounting a full blown attack the bw really didnt do as much as i hoped it would. it still ended up being close but once he got my cleric he then just kinda outlasted me because it was impossible to go get his without a huge loss.

My conclusion was that while it is pretty fun to play it is just to hard to set up and even if you dont try and initially set it up and instead use it to attack with the chance of setting it up later it still is extremely hard.

[Megabyte]

I think imag, monk, and others players are stuck in the idea that you need to specifically setup the assassin bomb. In other words, if it's in there, you MUST make efforts to use it. This is probably the biggest debilitating factor when using it, since it makes you predictable.

Nothing against them, I just don't think people are exploring all possibilities in tactics and are just focusing more into the assassin itself and taking time to use it. In testing, you should explore multiple strategies against multiple setups. If it does poorly when setting the assassin up for the bomb, the next test don't take any turns at all to set it up.

I'm still a firm advocate of the idea that if you want to use this concept, don't rely on it. If you're spending time each match to specifically set it up, it IS wasted time (as imag was indicating). So stop doing that.

[Maximus Decimus]

http://i0006.photobucket.com/albums/0006/pbhomepage/Dance/dance-10.gif

[imagination]

actually mega ... i never once tried to set up the bomb and instead used the ass as i would normally use any unit. my point was there was never a time where making the bomb would have been easy or needed.

[Megabyte]

Then you're using contrasting statements, if that's the case.

The thing was it was extremely hard to give up turns to set up the bomb and not actually go for better moves and so i never actually had a chance to bomb them.

My point was that it shouldn't be needed, just one amongst many possible strategies. If it's the most oppurtune in a match, go for it, if not, use a different tactic.

[imagination]

mega i feel we are saying the same thing with different conclussions. I always did use a different tactic and that was the problem. there are other units that can be better used for "other tactics." the strong point in this is it has the chance to be a bomb but what i am saying is that the chance is so hard to set up that it doesnt truely make it a good tactic.

[Pedro]

mega i feel we are saying the same thing with different conclussions. I always did use a different tactic and that was the problem. there are other units that can be better used for "other tactics." the strong point in this is it has the chance to be a bomb but what i am saying is that the chance is so hard to set up that it doesnt truely make it a good tactic.

It might be rare to setup the bomb, but if you dont always focus on setting it up all game, and in 1 turn your able to set-up the bomb with a mud-quake, then why not do it. Only if the assassin was damaged to 11 health by your opponent, THEN set up the bomb yourself to kill any opponent units laying around.

[Megabyte]

mega i feel we are saying the same thing with different conclussions.

Quite possibly.

Understand that I'm arguing the case in theory ;) I've never actually attempted a straight stony assassin setup. The ones I've linked are simple concepts, not tested. It's simply not a tactic that I think I would work well with right now.

[imagination]

It might be rare to setup the bomb, but if you dont always focus on setting it up all game, and in 1 turn your able to set-up the bomb with a mud-quake, then why not do it. Only if the assassin was damaged to 11 health by your opponent, THEN set up the bomb yourself to kill any opponent units laying around.

The thing is there are better units for all the other games. Remember i was on your side until i actually tested it. setting up the bomb would be rare and those rare occasions would not happen enough to make it comparitive to using a knight or something else.

[Pedro]

The thing is there are better units for all the other games. Remember i was on your side until i actually tested it. setting up the bomb would be rare and those rare occasions would not happen enough to make it comparitive to using a knight or something else.

But its been said that you wouldnt be focussed on setting up the bomb right off the bat.

You would first usually stone your units, then move up scout(s) to hit muddy, maybe move up muddy to go destone your opponent. MAYBE even in that time, if your opponent is focussed on killing your assassin you can take out THEIR mud golem, so even if the assassin died, IMO you've taken out a more valuable unit of theirs, than they did you.

[imagination]

or if they dont focus on your assassin you could initially start out with a worse peice :p

[rainblade]

I've played numerous times with the Assassin in my stone cluster (in turtle games), and it has always proved unexpectedly useful. People often times have to 'tip-toe' around you when you have her anywhere nearby. The reason for this is that most people aren't used to playing against a stoned Assassin and don't know exactly how to stop it (when you're playing against someone that knows how to use it.)

The bomb isn't going to be very effective, but the fear your opponent has of preparing the Assassin for the bomb by a stray mud smash or an accidental hit will be.

It's a good strategy, but there are too many ways around it.

[Pedro]

I've played numerous times with the Assassin in my stone cluster (in turtle games), and it has always proved unexpectedly useful. People often times have to 'tip-toe' around you when you have her anywhere nearby. The reason for this is that most people aren't used to playing against a stoned Assassin and don't know exactly how to stop it (when you're playing against someone that knows how to use it.)

The bomb isn't going to be very effective, but the fear your opponent has of preparing the Assassin for the bomb by a stray mud smash or an accidental hit will be.

It's a good strategy, but there are too many ways around it.

But maybe the threat of the assassin is all you need to cause an impact on your opponent with this form.

[rainblade]

But maybe the threat of the assassin is all you need to cause an impact on your opponent with this form.

An impact, possibly. But how frequently will it make that impact?

This is the question you really need to answer; is the Assassin going to be more effective against another turtle than the unit it replaced (ie. Wisp, Knight, etc...).

[Pedro]

An impact, possibly. But how frequently will it make that impact?

This is the question you really need to answer; is the Assassin going to be more effective against another turtle than the unit it replaced (ie. Wisp, Knight, etc...).

Well i replace it with the knight, and if the assassin is going to cause my opponent to change their strategy off the bat, then yes i think its more useful.

[bludhoundz]

Lol we've already talked about the ranged units in gold turtle games, but there are ways to get past them.

I'd see it as a pretty big problem if you can't enter within 8 squares of a mud or 7 of a dragon.. 10 of a scout even.

Feel free to show me something with your assassin in a turtle game, but I do not think it will be as effective as a beast rider for example.