Should we have to stand for the pledge?

[Take a Look]

Why or why not?

They make kids as young as 5 and 6 do the pledge daily too. Now even though by law they can't force it what kind of child is going to say no at that age. Hell what kind of child that age even understands what the hell they are actually saying. All it does is brain wash them with heavy nationalism. I mean just because by some sheer chance you were born somewhere does not mean you owe it allegiance if anything the state/nation should earn it NOT demand it.

[Jeffery]

Fine. Then you should EARN your way into school, not be given it. Just because you were born in the US dopesn't mean you should be allowed to go to school, right?

[Morning Star]

Yea that's the last thing we need are people who even give a damn about their country.

[Jonspen]

Are you actually serious?

You should be completely 100% loyal to the Country that not only are you born and raised in, but even if you just live in it. I don't give a crap what Country you come from, whether you were born and raised there too, you should pledge to the Country you are residing in and that should be final.

I don't know about America, but in England, when you're a citizen here you get the right to healthcare, welfare benefits for everything, and the right to an education as well as protection by the law etc. If you can't even pledge to the Country, why should we accomodate you and let you have all of these benefits? The Country is happy to shell out billions in tax-payers money to accomodate for it's people, why should people who don't pledge to the Country and contribute to it be allowed to reside and have all the benefits of staying there, which as I stated, is costing the money of people who are contributing to the Country? We're not a free Hotel. If you're going to be lazy and not contribute and leech off the Country, that's one thing, but if you can't even pledge your allegiance then that's just completely wrong.

[Forest_Archer]

But who is gaining from little kids saying the pledge? We're all happy to be in America, but do we have to be hypnotized every day? It's a democracy, guys, and to me, that seems hypocritical.

By the way, if you hang a flag outside your house, . . . why?

[Jonspen]

It's called being patriotic and being proud of where you live. Are you not proud of the Country you help to create?

Hypnotized? They're just trying to teach kids values so when they grow up they will want to carry on the way of their culture and not bend over for the rest of the world.

[Forest_Archer]

I'm proud of my country I suppose but I don't have to put a flag out on my lawn or say a stupid pledge. Do you see people in Europe doing that? We're all happy to live in America, okay? You sound like Joe McCarthy calling me a communist or something.

[Zander]

Doesn't brainwash.
Isn't even required, you don't have to stand(let alone cover your heart and pledge along with the crowd).
Go away.

[Jonspen]

I'm proud of my country I suppose but I don't have to put a flag out on my lawn or say a stupid pledge. Do you see people in Europe doing that? We're all happy to live in America, okay? You sound like Joe McCarthy calling me a communist or something.

People in Europe hang flags up all the time. I sometimes hang a flag up.

I never said you had to put a flag up, I just told you the reason why you would do it. It's the same reason people display clan tags in their signatures, userbars and CUTs.

[Xiahou Dun]

I don't know about America, but in England, when you're a citizen here you get the right to healthcare, welfare benefits for everything, and the right to an education as well as protection by the law etc. If you can't even pledge to the Country, why should we accomodate you and let you have all of these benefits? The Country is happy to shell out billions in tax-payers money to accomodate for it's people, why should people who don't pledge to the Country and contribute to it be allowed to reside and have all the benefits of staying there, which as I stated, is costing the money of people who are contributing to the Country? We're not a free Hotel. If you're going to be lazy and not contribute and leech off the Country, that's one thing, but if you can't even pledge your allegiance then that's just completely wrong.

People pledge to the flag in England now? I thought the Government wa sjust thinking about it?

It's called being patriotic and being proud of where you live. Are you not proud of the Country you help to create?

Hypnotized? They're just trying to teach kids values so when they grow up they will want to carry on the way of their culture and not bend over for the rest of the world.

Hah. It extends past patriotism. The pledge is in fact a small step down the road of communism. It's funny because America has a mortal fear of and history of persecution of communism. (See McCarthyism)

I'm proud of my country I suppose but I don't have to put a flag out on my lawn or say a stupid pledge. Do you see people in Europe doing that? We're all happy to live in America, okay? You sound like Joe McCarthy calling me a communist or something.

I don't see anything wrong with hanging a flag outside but I don't do it myself because it seems a little cheesy. I would not however want to be involved in anything like pledging allegiance to the flag. It's something England is currently considering putting into practice apparently.

[Forest_Archer]

That last point is a scary thought. Governments might use that to control us more and before you know it, it'll be the law to say the pledge every day.

[Jonspen]

no no, we don't have the pledge, I was just using kinda putting the two things together; the pledge in America and being patriotic and applying it to England as I don't know what goes on in America.

And it's a small step down the road to Communism? OH NOEZ! We say we're proud of our country so now we're all comrades! :rolleyes:

EDIT: What's it with people and constantly saying the "Government are controllzing us!1/1!111!?!?!1." It's getting really old. You sound like a wannabe revolutionary.

[†Tao Veteran†]

I'm Canadian and I have a flag ourside on my front lawn. I do this because I'm proud of where I come from and nothing can change that.

Say I move to America, I'm not all of a sudden going to change my mind about being proud of where I come from because I may be afraid of what people will think if I hang a Canadian flag on American soil.

I'm always going to be proud of where I come from BUT I hate saying our national anthem. That doesnt neccessarily mean I'm a traitor, does it?

[Take a Look]

I am not American, for all those who negged me :)

Notice i never said, i don't respect my Country

Also, People don't need to respect their pledge, Not all countries are the same..

[xerent]

What's the point in being proud for your country? It seems to me like a pile of dirt doesn't gain much from people obsessing over it.

With that being said, let me add some clarifying points / supplementary thoughts.

- I'm a big fan of education, and I -am- grateful that primary and secondary education are provided free of charge.

- The pledge of allegiance isn't exactly a binding contract. But it should also be considered something holy, and not taken lightly, nor without a measure of understanding. I for one did not feel comfortable in pledging myself to an administration that I did not understand, or agree with, even considering how naive I may have been.

- I believe one of America's greatest strengths as a country is that we take measures to foster and explore different ideas. This means there is nothing intrinsically -wrong- with not pledging your allegiance to your flag. Even if you don't however, you are still part of our nation, and we, as a country, are proud to have you given your different ideas.

- Finally, people need to stop obsessing over small and petty things, put their dicks back in their pants, and do whatever it is they do to progress humankind.

[Xiahou Dun]

And it's a small step down the road to Communism? OH NOEZ! We say we're proud of our country so now we're all comrades! :rolleyes:

You're making the Wrong Links in your head when you hear Communism. Communism is not just your views of Russians in Red hats blasting off nukes at the heros in action movies. A pledge to a flag is a concept that is Communistic. This does not make it bad in any way. But it does make me laugh due to how anti-communistic America often claims to be.

[The Cheat]

What I always did was stand but not say anything. Simple solution.

[†Tao Veteran†]

What I always did was stand but not say anything. Simple solution.

I've done this many time. Also, I have had many arguements with my teachers because sometimes I refuse to stand and say the national anthem with the rest of my school.

In my opinion, I don't think it's neccessary to stand nor say the anthem to show my allegiance to my country. It's a load of crock.

No one can stand there and tell me I'm being a traitor to my country because I refuse to stand for our national anthem. I'm proud to be Canadian and I will not be looked down upon because of my personal views.

[Jeffery]

- Finally, people need to stop obsessing over small and petty things, put their dicks back in their pants, and do whatever it is they do to progress humankind.

Um....

I kinda need that there dick out in order to help progress mankind. If you know what I mean.

[Realist]

Take a Look, does your country even have a pledge? To the king, or what? I'm curious.

[Magician]

I'm proud of my country I suppose but I don't have to put a flag out on my lawn or say a stupid pledge. Do you see people in Europe doing that? We're all happy to live in America, okay? You sound like Joe McCarthy calling me a communist or something.

I proudly wear the Saltire on my back whenever I go out to football or rugby matches. Heck, I've got both the Canadian flag and the Saltire hanging up in my room. :)

[Override]

Canada and Ireland have oaths of allegiance, but they are not required.

Not even China has a pledge to its flag, and it is an OLD, proud civilization.

"Gee, you didn't recite the Allegiance! Are you a terrorist?" You're either for America or against it. America has always been known for a culture of paranoia. :p

[Jeffery]

Canada and Ireland have oaths of allegiance, but they are not required.

Not even China has a pledge to its flag, and it is an OLD, proud civilization.

"Gee, you didn't recite the Allegiance! Are you a terrorist?" You're either for America or against it. America has always been known for a culture of paranoia. :p
It's not required in the US either though......

[mino]

I've got a Welsh Flag hanging above my bed. I'm very supportive to my county. I carry a welsh flag even if i'm going to watch a game down the pub... Hey! My whole damn city is supportive.

Also.. Mag, you went to watch Scottland get owned by Wales? ;)

[Xiahou Dun]

It's not required in the US either though......

Yes but choosing not to do it doesn't leave you with the feeling that everyone somehow resents you for it there's the law and then there is peer pressure. Many people may do it just because other people might look down on them if they don't. : D

I have an English flag Sarong(Sp>?) which I've only ever cracked out at large sporting events. That's as far as my Cliched Patriotism extends.

[Wizzy`]

The U.S. sucks.
Anyone who denies that is either crazy, or just weird.

Okay, so..United States the country doesn't suck. The government are a bunch of dillholes though.

[Nitanius Nolund]

Canada and Ireland have oaths of allegiance, but they are not required.

I don't even remember what ours is.

But you know what? I don't care.

[2xfire]

Why has this not been a issue until the past 5-10 years? I think thats the best question......

I personally will stand and cite the pledge any chance I get. But I'm not condemning the ones who don't.

[Worker]

look at me !!! i'm a rebellious teenager and i'm not standing for the pledge!!! stickin it to the man!

[Jeffery]

Why has this not been a issue until the past 5-10 years? I think thats the best question......

I personally will stand and cite the pledge any chance I get. But I'm not condemning the ones who don't.
Court cases over the pledge going back 50 years would beg to differ on your time frame.

The latest hub-bub over it has to do with the term "under God" being in the pledge. Funny enough, the last brewhaha over this was when it was added INTO the pledge.

[Xiahou Dun]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_vids/Robot_chicken_terrorism.htm

[Lord Sesshomaru]

You're making the Wrong Links in your head when you hear Communism. Communism is not just your views of Russians in Red hats blasting off nukes at the heros in action movies. A pledge to a flag is a concept that is Communistic. This does not make it bad in any way. But it does make me laugh due to how anti-communistic America often claims to be.

QFT

[Worker]

Lol.

What pisses me off is when I see Mexcians hanging their Mexico flag outside their houses in America. Why can't they go back to Mexico if they are proud of Mexico, but not America? This isn't just about Mexicans, but other people as well. If you're not proud of America, then get the fuck out of here.Being proud of your heritage isn't unamerican.

[Jeffery]

Lol.

What pisses me off is when I see Mexcians hanging their Mexico flag outside their houses in America. Why can't they go back to Mexico if they are proud of Mexico, but not America? This isn't just about Mexicans, but other people as well. If you're not proud of America, then get the fuck out of here.
Who says they are not also proud of America. If peeople weren;t proud of both the current Amercian culture, as well as the culture they come from, then where would you get your Chinese food from? Or Mexican food.
There is no reason a person can admire more than one culture.

[Anarchy_United]

Of course not, not having to stand for the pledge is what this country is all about.

[inked]

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

[Wizzy`]

brewhaha

:lol:

[Wizzy`]

There is no reason a person can admire more than one culture.

Okay, so im thinking Jeffery made a mistake here, but knowing him he will tell me something that makes me think he didn't. :(

[Morning Star]

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

You forgot "under god" Terrorist!

[The AIDS Virus]

I haven't said the pledge since 6th grade. I have more important things to do than mindlessly indulge in a pledge. I like the US, I want my country to be the best it can be, if that's not good enough for them they can go screw themselves. Honestly it's more of a nuisance than anything, no one I know honestly thinks about what they are saying when they take the pledge, so it has less meaning than my sitting there acknowledging that I like the country.

[sooner4life]

You forgot "under god" Terrorist!

It never occurred to you that he did that on purpose?

[Jonspen]

It never occurred to you that Morning Star was joking?

[BeoWoulf]

What the hell, thousands of people have died so that you can be able to say that pledge. and you whant to minimize thier ultimate scrafice. And before you sit at your computer and bitch about how you have "more important things to do" think about the men and women who suffered and are still suffering from nightmarish dreams, about battles were they seen dead babes on the street half, and dead people because of mal-nutrition so think about that before you shot your big ass mouth off.

[BeoWoulf]

Jonspen I was talking to the aids virus

[Wizzy`]

What the hell, thousands of people have died so that you can be able to say that pledge. and you whant to minimize thier ultimate scrafice. And before you sit at your computer and bitch about how you have "more important things to do" think about the men and women who suffered and are still suffering from nightmarish dreams, about battles were they seen dead babes on the street half, and dead people because of mal-nutrition so think about that before you shot your big ass mouth off.

A wise man once said..

And before you sit at your computer and bitch

STFU


btw: lol@Heck&Hell posts

[Xiahou Dun]

What the hell, thousands of people have died so that you can be able to say that pledge. and you whant to minimize thier ultimate scrafice. And before you sit at your computer and bitch about how you have "more important things to do" think about the men and women who suffered and are still suffering from nightmarish dreams, about battles were they seen dead babes on the street half, and dead people because of mal-nutrition so think about that before you shot your big ass mouth off.

Lol. Oh yes. That's right, ask the spirit of anyone who died in battle. They didn't fight to save their loved ones or for pride in their country and a cause they believed in.Oh no. They did it so that you could pledge to the flag when they were dead and gone. That was their motivation.:rolleyes:

[The Coder]

ITS THE ZEITGEIST RUN!112!11!eoneonetwotwoone!12

[BeoWoulf]

well sooner4life I hope. But I take comments like that serius considering I will be on day defending this great nation

[steve12]

Why or why not...?

How about.... why not?

[Xiahou Dun]

well sooner4life I hope. But I take comments like that serius considering I will be on day defending this great nation

Oh so that's what you call running in and stomping on the head of a devoloping country and marching out declaring victory around the time it's populace have to start eating their own dead these days is it? Defending? Obvious Trolling is Obvious.

[Override]

Oh so that's what you call running in and stomping on the head of a devoloping country and marching out declaring victory around the time it's populace have to start eating their own dead these days is it? Defending?

Don't you know? Attacking is the new defending. Paranoia's all the rage these days! I did not spot your black text, and hopefully, nobody spots mine.

[Wizzy`]

Oh so that's what you call running in and stomping on the head of a devoloping country and marching out declaring victory around the time it's populace have to start eating their own dead these days is it? Defending? Obvious Trolling is Obvious.

<_<
Sandmonkeys hit our twin towers..
We killed them.

Tadah!

Yes, I said Sandmonkies. Be happy I didn't say something more mean.

[Lord Sesshomaru]

Oh so that's what you call running in and stomping on the head of a devoloping country and marching out declaring victory around the time it's populace have to start eating their own dead these days is it? Defending? Obvious Trolling is Obvious.

RAWR!
Watch it BeoWoulf, this cat has claws. :D

[The AIDS Virus]

What the hell, thousands of people have died so that you can be able to say that pledge. and you whant to minimize thier ultimate scrafice. And before you sit at your computer and bitch about how you have "more important things to do" think about the men and women who suffered and are still suffering from nightmarish dreams, about battles were they seen dead babes on the street half, and dead people because of mal-nutrition so think about that before you shot your big ass mouth off.

Did you even read my post? I totally support this country, probably more than you do. I have only the utmost respect for everyone in the armed forces. If I don't believe I should have to pledge then I darn well ain't gonna pledge daily. Once is enough for me. Next time you want to send someone on a guilt trip actually listen to what they have to say.

[Jeffery]

Either pledge or we send you to live with Jehuty.

[Lord Sesshomaru]

Either pledge or we send you to live with Jehuty.

I pledge allegiance, to Queen Frag, and her United States of hysteria.

[inked]

<_<
Sandmonkeys hit our twin towers..
We .

Tadah!

Yes, I said Sandmonkies. Be happy I didn't say something more mean.

Brand new video of al Qaida training to hit our towers hard!
http://hallpass.com/media/kungfuchimp.html

I bet they could hit them harder than I could.

[Anarchy_United]

What the hell, thousands of people have died so that you can be able to say that pledge. and you whant to minimize thier ultimate scrafice. And before you sit at your computer and bitch about how you have "more important things to do" think about the men and women who suffered and are still suffering from nightmarish dreams, about battles were they seen dead babes on the street half, and dead people because of mal-nutrition so think about that before you shot your big ass mouth off.

They fought for the right not to say the pledge. That is what freedom is, the right not to have to do anything. The right not to vote is just as important as the right to vote. IF you have to vote, you are not truly free.

[Anarchy_United]

I pledge allegiance, to Queen Frag, and her United States of hysteria.

I can't believe it is only 8:05...



I hope I remembered that correctly.

[Hatchet Warrior]

Either pledge or we send you to live with Jehuty.

Run out of room at kromes place?

[Lord Sesshomaru]

I can't believe it is only 8:05...



I hope I remembered that correctly.

Wish I could tell you. I was trying hard as hell to remember how the end of it went.

[Anarchy_United]

Wish I could tell you. I was trying hard as hell to remember how the end of it went.

It is when he goes back to school, and he gets sent to the principal office 2-3 times that day, and each tiem, he goes, "I can't believe it is only...____"

[Tama Drummer]

I just thought about it... and I don't even realize I'm saying the pledge when I do. I don't think, "Oh! Time to praise my country!" Instead, it's a subconscious action I do every morning in school. Outside of school, I don't even think about it. Hell, I can't even remember if I actually verbally say the pledge or not.

So whatever the goal of the pledge is, for me, all it's done is become something I've learned early that I need to do in school. It really has no meaning to me, and once I graduate, it's likely I will never say it again.

[The Coder]

Run out of room at kromes place?

No, but he actually started cleaning up the place, sanitary conditions are way too good to send people there.

[Supersmiley :-)]

Guys, for one thing the point of the point of the pledge is not to brainwash you. Saying the pledge is simply just showing some patriotism for your country.

America is a great country, in fact one of the world super powers. We have great technology and even for the most part our poorest citizens are more well of than people in africa, who suffer from Molaria and other diseases because they can hardly afford to be treated.

Just living in america has tons of benefits, and the least you can do is stand up and show some respect for our country.

[Unforgottner]

Better question: Do we have to stand to pledge our loyalty to a server?

[Realist]

Guys, for one thing the point of the point of the pledge is not to brainwash you.

Actually, that is pretty much the point for which it was designed, to encourage submission to state authority. Why do you think we didn't have anything like this until the end of the 19th century? It's worth considering the history, it was an authoritarianistic time.

I'm not saying that brainwashing people to accept state authority is necessarily a bad thing; in fact, I'm strongly in favor. But let's not be silly.

[The Coder]

Guys, for one thing the point of the point of the pledge is not to brainwash you. Saying the pledge is simply just showing some patriotism for your country.

America is a great country, in fact one of the world super powers. We have great technology and even for the most part our poorest citizens are more well of than people in africa, who suffer from Molaria and other diseases because they can hardly afford to be treated.

Just living in america has tons of benefits, and the least you can do is stand up and show some respect for our country.

Starving Children in Africa is a government conspiracy to make you donate money to it, and to make you fall in line easier and be grateful for the little you have.

[The SOB]

although this country has major benifits supersmiley, i have heard about this country going into a ressession, possibly a depression. our economy is doing exteremly horrible.

and to this pledge thing.... i don't really care about it. it's not really a waist of time. it doesn't hurt anyone, it just annoyes people... and it also gives the people more of a reason to bitch. just like christianity gives people a reason to bitch even though the U.S. is primarily made up of christians... but the reason why they bitch is because they're bitches so yeah... (sorry for saying the B word so much, couldn't think of a word to replace it) but anywho, if you don't like the way america lives their lives then go back to your home country and cry about it there... this is the most idiotic thread ever...

[The AIDS Virus]

I just thought about it... and I don't even realize I'm saying the pledge when I do. I don't think, "Oh! Time to praise my country!" Instead, it's a subconscious action I do every morning in school. Outside of school, I don't even think about it. Hell, I can't even remember if I actually verbally say the pledge or not.

So whatever the goal of the pledge is, for me, all it's done is become something I've learned early that I need to do in school. It really has no meaning to me, and once I graduate, it's likely I will never say it again.

You totally proved my point. It's a ridiculous institution if it doesn't even mean anything.

[Wizzy`]

Brand new video of al Qaida training to hit our towers hard!
http://hallpass.com/media/kungfuchimp.html

I bet they could hit them harder than I could.

I agree.

[R G]

Oh so that's what you call running in and stomping on the head of a devoloping country and marching out declaring victory around the time it's populace have to start eating their own dead these days is it? Defending? Obvious Trolling is Obvious.


What in the hell are you talking about? Eating their own dead? Marching out declaring victory? What war you talking about? :confused:

[Wizzy`]

What in the hell are you talking about? Eating their own dead? Marching out declaring victory? What war you talking about? :confused:

:lol:!!!!11111

[BeoWoulf]

he's talking about how this country defends its self. It has changed from what xiahou dun says to what we are doing in iraq now, rebulding a country after we have defeted them and crushed the regime that was holding those people hostage. Know they are talking about pulling out and leaving sectors for the iraqi police and military to defend. That is how this country treats those who they have defeted in war.

[The Coder]

he's talking about how this country defends its self. It has changed from what xiahou dun says to what we are doing in irag now, rebulding a country after we have defeted them and crushed the regime that was holding those people hostage. Know they are talking about pulling out and leaving sectors for the iragi police and military to defend. That is how this country treats those who they have defeted in war.

You do not have rights to speak about Iraq.

You do not even know how it's spelled.

[mantis33]

If you don't wanna say it, don't. But not standing is in my opinion disrespectful. If you're not even gonna stand, get out of America.

[meat.eater]

You do not have rights to speak about Iraq.

You do not even know how it's spelled.

Since human thought revolves around spelling. And age. And gender. And other extraneous things that really dont matter in terms of why people form opinions.

[Take a Look]

Mantis: You negged me with the comment "You can leave if you don't like it here"

I already said that I am not American, and i don't live in the States.

[inked]

If you are Canadian.... lol silly French.
If you are British... I didn't hear what you said, I was busy analyzing your teeth.
If you are French... sorry busy eating my Freedom Fries from Mickey D's.
If you are German... LOUD ANGRY NOISES.
If you are Russian... stop slurring and set down the V-juice.
If you are Australian... hipidy hop away on your magic kangaroo to magic land so you can make sure you do your madatory vote.
Something else... you fail to matter... to contact United States please see section 4.3029 of how to contact the UN, then pray we care what they think so that you can channel your words through them. kthnxbai.

(j/k)

[Jeffery]

Mantis: You negged me with the comment "You can leave if you don't like it here"

I already said that I am not American, and i don't live in the States.
Thank god for small favors.

[mantis33]

Mantis: You negged me with the comment "You can leave if you don't like it here"

I already said that I am not American, and i don't live in the States.

Then why in the hell are you even making this thread??!?!?!?

[Worker]

Then why in the hell are you even making this thread??!?!?!?

You can leave if you don't like it here










:p

[mantis33]

/assassinate

[xerent]

If you don't wanna say it, don't. But not standing is in my opinion disrespectful. If you're not even gonna stand, get out of America.

If only it was up to you to decide what it means to be American.

[Worker]

If only it was up to you to decide what it means to be American.It is disrespectful, just as it is if an American doesn't stand for another nations national anthem.

[xerent]

It is disrespectful, just as it is if an American doesn't stand for another nations national anthem.

How, exactly, is not standing disrespectful?

It seems silly that people should obsess over the angle of another persons knees.

[Wizzy`]

How, exactly, is not standing disrespectful?

It seems silly that people should obsess over the angle of another persons knees.

o_O
It just is.

[xerent]

o_O
It just is.

How very faithful of you.

[Worker]

How, exactly, is not standing disrespectful?Well I guess I am off topic a bit because I am referring to the National Anthem but.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abdul-Rauf the 'national anthem controversy' part...


With regards to the pledge, 9 times out of 10 its a punk kid just being disrespectful and rebellious, but being an American, you have that right.

[Wizzy`]

How very faithful of you.

Xerent, would it be wrong for me to tell you i<3u?


agreed with worker kids in my school dont stand and then laugh cause they think they're being bad..I don't do it cause im tired and dont feel like standing.

[xerent]

Well I guess I am off topic a bit because I am referring to the National Anthem but.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abdul-Rauf the 'national anthem controversy' part...


With regards to the pledge, 9 times out of 10 its a punk kid just being disrespectful and rebellious, but being an American, you have that right.

So, you're saying that standing is disrespectful, because it emulates the actions of a muslim basketball player?

Or, are you saying it is disrespectful, because sitting makes you a punk kid?

[Worker]

Xerent, would it be wrong for me to tell you i<3u?It would be disrespectful if you aren't standing up when you tell him.

So, you're saying that standing is disrespectful, because it emulates the actions of a muslim basketball player?

Or, are you saying it is disrespectful, because sitting makes you a punk kid? I was just showing a case where not standing has caused a lot of controversy.

And for the record, the kids that didnt want to stand when I was in highschool were stoned.

[Wizzy`]

It would be disrespectful if you aren't standing up when you tell him.

but i cant stand and type.

[xerent]

I was just showing a case where not standing has caused a lot of controversy.

Right, and I agree that it's a hot topic, which strikes me as strange. Most people think that observing these types of formalities is a key to being accepted in the 'American Family'. And to not do so automatically means that you don't -want- to be accepted into the American family, that you are anti-American, A bombing terrorist with a flight license, or Satan herself, given various degrees of extremism.

But in some cases, it's just simply another viewpoint on what it means to be an American, clashing with conservative views.

[BeoWoulf]

you don't even have to say the pledge just stand and show respect for the people who gave you the right to not say the pledge

[Anarchy_United]

How, exactly, is not standing disrespectful?

It seems silly that people should obsess over the angle of another persons knees.

Logic is not appreciated here.

[The Coder]

Logic is not appreciated here.

What is this "Logic"?

[Jaymee_]

There is a piece of artwork that is titled, What is the Proper Way to Display the American Flag?. It was made in 1989.. it is a flag on the floor with a book on a shelf above it. A sign asks the viewer to sign the book to show they have seen it. In order to sign the book, you have to step on the flag. `

People hated the exhibition because they said it was disrespectful, which was the guys point. Anyways, my point is, respect sometimes not always shown outwardly in the same way by everyone. I think not blowing up the USA is a good way to show respect.. much rather someone do that than stand up for the pledge.

[Realist]

I think not blowing up the USA is a good way to show respect.. much rather someone do that than stand up for the pledge.

I do that every day.

[Jaymee_]

And that's why you're such a respectful American. : )

[Ächilles]

Are you actually serious?

You should be completely 100% loyal to the Country that not only are you born and raised in, but even if you just live in it. I don't give a crap what Country you come from, whether you were born and raised there too, you should pledge to the Country you are residing in and that should be final.

So when I'm a Jewish family living in Nazi Germany, and Hitler just gassed my entire family at a concentration camp, I should pledge my undying allegiance to the 3rd Reich and that is FINAL?

When I'm living in the Soviet Union, with my family on our farm, and Stalin has my dad taken behind our barn and shot because we didn't meet the quota for grains this harvest, I should pledge my eternal allegiance to Mother Russia and that is FINAL?

How about me? America doesn't give me jack shit. They just took my health insurance away, and get this: it's illegal to not have health insurance, so because I don't have it, I'm not allowed to file my taxes. So because I can't afford health insurance, since the government takes half of my check to fund new ways to kill Iraqis, I'm not allowed to file taxes. Meaning I might go to JAIL if I can't figure my situation out. I need to somehow take the half of my check the government didn't take, buy health insurance, then find more money to pay taxes.

You're looking at this way to narrow minded, Jonspen. I shouldn't pledge allegiance to where I was born simply because I was born there no questions asked. That's blind loyalty, my friend. If you have it good where you live, then by all means, be grateful and pay your respect and dues to the people taking care of you. But you fail to recognize that's not the case everywhere.

[Xiahou Dun]

You're looking at this way to narrow minded, Jonspen. I shouldn't pledge allegiance to where I was born simply because I was born there no questions asked. That's blind loyalty, my friend. If you have it good where you live, then by all means, be grateful and pay your respect and dues to the people taking care of you. But you fail to recognize that's not the case everywhere.

"You should serve your country because of what it is. Not in spite what it is."

[bloodreign]

This is maddness!

THIS... IS ....SPARTA!

[Ächilles]

"You should serve your country because of what it is. Not in spite what it is."

By your logic, if I live in Nazi Germany, I should look past all the genocide and war crimes, and try to find the good in Hitler's cause, right? Why live in spite of the fact that he wants to unjustifiably exterminate an entire religion from the face of the Earth? That'd just be negative, I should serve mein Fuhrer!

[Xiahou Dun]

By your logic, if I live in Nazi Germany, I should look past all the genocide and war crimes, and try to find the good in Hitler's cause, right? Why live in spite of the fact that he wants to unjustifiably exterminate an entire religion from the face of the Earth? That'd just be negative, I should serve mein Fuhrer!

Umm no. Not by My Logic at all. You've misunderstood me. I was saying you should serve your country because you want to and you believe in it. Not because it is your country, therefore you should ignore it's problems and devote yourself to it anyway.

[Ächilles]

Umm no. Not by My Logic at all. You've misunderstood me. I was saying you should serve your country because you want to and you believe in it. Not because it is your country, therefore you should ignore it's problems and devote yourself to it anyway.

Ah, gotchya. Sorry dude.

[Xiahou Dun]

Ah, gotchya. Sorry dude.

No Apologies needed. I know I'm too damn ambiguous for my own good when I'm trying to make a point sometimes but speaking directly is too boring. : D

[Jaymee_]

So when I'm a Jewish family living in Nazi Germany, and Hitler just gassed my entire family at a concentration camp, I should pledge my undying allegiance to the 3rd Reich and that is FINAL?

When I'm living in the Soviet Union, with my family on our farm, and Stalin has my dad taken behind our barn and shot because we didn't meet the quota for grains this harvest, I should pledge my eternal allegiance to Mother Russia and that is FINAL?

How about me? America doesn't give me jack shit. They just took my health insurance away, and get this: it's illegal to not have health insurance, so because I don't have it, I'm not allowed to file my taxes. So because I can't afford health insurance, since the government takes half of my check to fund new ways to kill Iraqis, I'm not allowed to file taxes. Meaning I might go to JAIL if I can't figure my situation out. I need to somehow take the half of my check the government didn't take, buy health insurance, then find more money to pay taxes.

You're looking at this way to narrow minded, Jonspen. I shouldn't pledge allegiance to where I was born simply because I was born there no questions asked. That's blind loyalty, my friend. If you have it good where you live, then by all means, be grateful and pay your respect and dues to the people taking care of you. But you fail to recognize that's not the case everywhere.


I don't have health insurance. I've already filed my taxes, received my return, and spent it. I'm not in jail.

[Ächilles]

You live in a different state.

[Jaymee_]

You live in a different state.

I thought taxes were federal.. I don't know. I just do what my dad tells me to do when it comes to that sort of thing. : )

[Jonspen]

So when I'm a Jewish family living in Nazi Germany, and Hitler just gassed my entire family at a concentration camp, I should pledge my undying allegiance to the 3rd Reich and that is FINAL?

When I'm living in the Soviet Union, with my family on our farm, and Stalin has my dad taken behind our barn and shot because we didn't meet the quota for grains this harvest, I should pledge my eternal allegiance to Mother Russia and that is FINAL?

How about me? America doesn't give me jack shit. They just took my health insurance away, and get this: it's illegal to not have health insurance, so because I don't have it, I'm not allowed to file my taxes. So because I can't afford health insurance, since the government takes half of my check to fund new ways to kill Iraqis, I'm not allowed to file taxes. Meaning I might go to JAIL if I can't figure my situation out. I need to somehow take the half of my check the government didn't take, buy health insurance, then find more money to pay taxes.

You're looking at this way to narrow minded, Jonspen. I shouldn't pledge allegiance to where I was born simply because I was born there no questions asked. That's blind loyalty, my friend. If you have it good where you live, then by all means, be grateful and pay your respect and dues to the people taking care of you. But you fail to recognize that's not the case everywhere.

You're right, I probably haven't experienced enough of the world to know whether it should be the case everywhere, but I was referring to the Western World, and as far as I know it's no longer like the Third Reich or Soviet Russia.

Edit: Xiahou summed it up nicely.

[inked]

Governor Mitt Romney made Health Insurance mandatory for Massachusetts.

[The AIDS Virus]

Governor Mitt Romney made Health Insurance mandatory for Massachusetts.

My hero.NOT!!!!

[Jeffery]

That and made Street Fighter mandatory training.

[Blexican]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/hdevonxz/4chanyouencounteredmccain.gif

[The Professor?]

Lmao.

[Magician]

Awesome. :bigsmile:

[Match Strike]

To answer the question in the thread title: no.

I feel no great pride/loyalty based on borders that were created somewhat arbitrarily by people who have been dead for hundreds of years, give or take.

[Ächilles]

I thought taxes were federal.. I don't know. I just do what my dad tells me to do when it comes to that sort of thing. : )

Massachusetts just passed a new law that it's illegal to not have health insurance. So as a motivator they thought it would be a good idea to not allow anyone without it to file taxes. They didn't put two and two together though, as if I can't afford health insurance, I definitely won't be able to afford taxes AFTER you make me pay for said insurance.

You're right, I probably haven't experienced enough of the world to know whether it should be the case everywhere, but I was referring to the Western World, and as far as I know it's no longer like the Third Reich or Soviet Russia.

Edit: Xiahou summed it up nicely.

Xiahou summed up the complete and total opposite of what your stance is. You're saying you should pledge fealty to your country no matter what only because it's your home. He's saying you SHOULDN'T pledge loyalty just because, and you should only pledge it if you truly want to and believe in it. See:

I was saying you should serve your country because you want to and you believe in it. Not because it is your country, therefore you should ignore it's problems and devote yourself to it anyway.

You shouldn't have a stock allegiance to a country. You have just been defining blind loyalty. You more or less took it straight out of the text book. It doesn't have to be a fascist dictatorship, or a tyrannical monarchy that would cause your allegiance to uproot itself. It could be simply you want no part in what your country represents.

The Italians and Greeks have been trying to make the term una faccia, una razza, or "One Face, One Race" hit home with both nations for centuries. An absurdly large amount of Italians hate Greeks, and vice versa. What if I live in Italy and I simply don't want to be a part of that? What if my whole country is just racist or unanimously biased towards something? What if I want nothing to do with that? By your logic, I should simply go against my heartfelt beliefs and stand tall with those people regardless.