Everybody has their problems. Here is mine.

[dirka dirka]

So you sit there, reading, clicking, typing, breathing... but you take it all for granted. No, I'm not some religious nut nor am I some sort of conspiracy theorist. I'm just me, Eric... just me realizing we're screwed as a civilization. Let us be completely honest in this thread, cause I want some answers, and I don't care about your previous grudges, hate, love, or any emotion you might hold.

Every time I think I've fallen for a girl, and I do mean every time, I sit back a month later and realize I can't have an intelligent conversation with her. Every time I talk to a conspiracy theorist, a ditsy blond, a religiously entrapped family, I just feel like it's all for nothing. Every time I see something that isn't directed toward figuring out why and how this *u**ing god damned universe works, I feel like it's a waste.

I'm an addict, I've got no problem admitting it. I have not done a single drug for about 2 weeks thanks to Ach (and I'm not kidding, while everyone else was saying it was me just going through a stage he had the balls to tell me what I needed to do). I'm planning on sticking to this path. This is not a drug induced muse. This is actually the reason why I resorted to being a dolt addict in the first place.


Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

[-57-]

Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

Why do you need to know how the universe works?

[EmelGreenLeafer]

Because thats how its meant to be till the end of all of us, separate nations with different ideals, separate races, separate religions, different emotions, all of this prevents us from working together for a better future. And the sad part is, there is absolutely no cure for this.

Why is it meant to be this why is the question that needs an answere

[Kyir]

Because everyone takes everything too seriously, they should all just listen to me.

Because thats how its meant to be till the end of all of us, separate nations with different ideals, separate races, separate religions, different emotions, all of this prevents us from working together for a better future. And the sad part is, there is absolutely no cure for this.

WW3.

[dirka dirka]

Why do you need to know how the universe works?

If I knew that, I'd be so much closer to my goal. Honestly, good question. That's another question I can't answer. I wish I had a better answer for this.

Because thats how its meant to be till the end of all of us, separate nations with different ideals, separate races, separate religions, different emotions, all of this prevents us from working together for a better future. And the sad part is, there is absolutely no cure for this.

Who or what defines this meaning, though?

[-57-]

If I knew that, I'd be so much closer to my goal. Honestly, good question. That's another question I can't answer. I wish I had a better answer for this.

I get what you have all the time man when I'm in the shower or lieing in bed and can't fall sleep. I just start asking questions, and I get myself in a rut, and it goes in a circle.

And then I just tell myself, wow, this is dumb. Not only that, but these questions have no answers, at least not that I can give them. So I just let them pass. And move on.

Usually think about more fun stuff. Like girls.

And that isn't a joke.

[EmelGreenLeafer]

Who or what defines this meaning, though?

Its called an opinion. Since the world began, all of the controversies have been because of separate people, with different ideas, and the other separate people with different ideas. Peace could never be reached, and so we kill each other. It happens everyday and even right now as i type this, between humans and animals, for MILLIONS of years, and if by then there has been no cure, then there is no cure for it in the future. All wars have been because of this, and thats why we will never move as a civillization.

I guess the answere can't just be, deal with it. But it seems like its the only thing we can do. Sorry you feel this way dirka, and i completely understand where you are coming from.

[_Thunder_]

Dirka, you have gotten to be an ok guy by me. So don't take this the wrong way but, does anyone here have your answer? Do you really think someone will just post here and you will get it? Just wondering.

[Jeffery]

The term "Shit happens" comes to mind.

[dirka dirka]

Dirka, you have gotten to be an ok guy by me. So don't take this the wrong way but, does anyone here have your answer? Do you really think someone will just post here and you will get it? Just wondering.

I'm moreover looking for reason's why I don't get it. Because I'm almost 100% sure all of these replies will fit in that category, which narrows my other category, why I might get it, down a lot. Basically, and I see what you mean, I don't expect to find an answer... but moreover a reason why I won't find an answer.

I'll post more tomorrow, night.

[plusminus]

Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

Time for a primer in existentialism, since it sounds like you're going through a bit of an existential crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_crisis):

The basic idea behind existential philosophy is that the universe is truly empty, there is no god, life has no greater purpose, etc. And therefore when we die, we're dead and that's it, and whatever happens in our lives is, as far as the whole of the universe is concerned, essentially meaningless.

It stands to reason that this can be an incredibly frightening idea. Therefore, to avoid confronting this idea, people have a tendency to fill their lives with things that are trivial. Worrying about bills, chasing girls, doing drugs, playing online games, and so forth. Essentially you are "filling your life" with things, but generally doing it via the path of least resistance.

If this is what you actually believe, the upside is that you are free to place importance on whatever is it you want. There is no overarching plan that you have to follow, and you can make decisions about how to act based on whatever system of values you have.


This is just one way of looking at the world, I'm not trying to start yet another religious "debate". But it sounds like something you personally might want to explore a bit. Also the term existentialism is hard to define exactly, and different ideas between popular existential philosophers/writers/etc.

EDIT: You should definately read Waiting for Godot in a few months when you're not feeling so down. meat says to read Endgame (http://samuel-beckett.net/endgame.html) instead, though.

[EmelGreenLeafer]

I'm moreover looking for reason's why I don't get it. Because I'm almost 100% sure all of these replies will fit in that category, which narrows my other category, why I might get it, down a lot. Basically, and I see what you mean, I don't expect to find an answer... but moreover a reason why I won't find an answer.

I'll post more tomorrow, night.

I think its best to forget about the reasons or answeres because it just confuses us even more, then comes frustration, anger, depression and its a terrible feeling. I think we should just do whatever everyone ells does, its the way its suppost to be, just like mountain dew goes good with frito lays.

[emerald slasher]

Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

because everyone grows up not knowing what thier true purpose should be. and things like arguing on this forum give time to avoid confronting what we should be. Civilization doesn't move because everyone is too concerned about themselves and their hobbies. For example instead of donating my money too help some kid in Africa i spend it on a DVD or some other pointless entertainment...

Civilization stays where it is because everyone looks for a shortcut, its like working out too lose weight...if we go strong everyday with a few breaks we would lose weight, instead we're looking for the next miracle thing to allow us too be lazier then we are and when it fails we just popint the finger.

I don't know if my insights make much sense but its just what i could come up with in a few minutes, good luck finding an answer that appeases you man

[Smiley_Girl]

Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

What kind of shit are you talking about? People don't care about shit. Maybe you think it's shit, but they are really about it. I don't think people would actually care about shit...?

Arguing on this forum can sometimes be shit. But it can also be viewed as a debate? Sometimes I find myself arguing, ask myself why I'm arguing, and then think to myself, because I know I'm right and want to show him his wrong. I like to be better than people, so if I can beat someone in an online argument, it may be shit to some people, but I care about it. I assume this applies to many other people.

If someone cuts me off while I'm driving, I get mad. I say, why the shit did he cut me off? Depending on my momentary attitude, I will go up and cut him off to show him my anger. Cutting someone off is annoying to them, and it's pretty stupid of someone to do so.

I would not classify unpaid bills as stupid shit. Bills are needed to be paid, and sometimes it makes people mad because they went up, but hey, it's their house and they should take responsibility. Bills arn't stupid shit because if they are bypassed, they will cause damage.

Now girls deal with emotion. I often find myself having wandering thoughts of girls. But to put it simple, everyone wants to find their perfect match. People think that the feeling of true love is amazing, and would do a lot to find it. I recently watched the movie Good Luck Chuck, I thought of that while I was typing this.

As for moving on as a civilization, some people are just DUMB. You have to understand that there are the people who just don't get stuff. There are people that you could give them directions to walk 2 steps forward, then turn left and walk 2 steps forward, then turn left again and walk 2 more steps forward. And they will say, why the shit did you make me do that instead of just walking right there. Really though, I think the USA has moved along. Sure 911 brings up bad memories, and bad thoughts about GWB, but that's because he sucks..? I really like threads like this, because I just get to babble about stuff that is on my mind.

Granted, these are all my personal opinions and will most likely be disputed, which then I will try to win some shitty argument made by some other forumer. ;)

[pils]

Dirka the answer you are looking for can be found in just about any major religion. The trick is actually believing it...
Also, define "moving on as a civilization." Because I feel we are "moving along," just fine. In some areas more than others, but "moving on," none the less.

[cs_zero]

I think in order for our civilization to move on, we HAVE to think about these things, just because they might be stupid to you and me, they may not be to someone else.

I believe that if we are simply content with how we are now, nothing will ever change. Technology will stop improving, scientists will stop looking for new medicine, and the world will just...well.... stop moving on.... which is the total opposite of what you want, right?

Unless you mean like the "get over it" kind of move on.... then idk

I just re-read what I wrote, and it doesn't sound as good as it does in my head when i think about it, so I'll probably come back tomorrow and change it up a bit. The general idea will be the same, it'll just sound better. :)

[meat.eater]

Waiting for Godot should never be recommended for analysis ESPECIALLY about existentialism. You're just setting him up a trap to hate the world more. :p But, Samuel Beckett was more absurdest than existentialist: there is an entire faction of argument that Beckett doesnt write to find meaning/questions/answers, but actually writes simply as nonconformity to the patterns of thought that humanity has exerted thus far. Read Endgame.

However, existentially, Beckett would argue that the answer to human existence is to search for answers. Which is a little different than the Greek mindset of the answer being: "asking the right questions." It means you actually have to see the questions and live in a debt of frustration for the lack of the clarity of their answers.

So, basically, Beckett would say that by being frustrated about fulfilling human existence, you're fulfilling human existence. Like I said... it's absurdism. AKA: Brain ####.

I much prefer conventional absurdism (like Ionesco) to classical absurdism (like Beckett). Ionesco does away with writing and literary norms, Beckett does away with idealistic norms. What these playwrights have in common, however, is that while they both recognize and validate their absurdest agenda, they reccomend and acknowledge that life is easier and better if you ignore them. Which basically argues that knowledge isnt power. It's weird, paradoxical, absurdest crap. I love it.

[plusminus]

Waiting for Godot should never be recommended for analysis ESPECIALLY about existentialism. You're just setting him up a trap to hate the world more. :p

Well you might be right, but when I first read it, it got me on the road to at least asking a bunch of questions that I hadn't thought to ask before. Dirka's post seemed more confusion than hate anyhow. Post edited...

But, Samuel Beckett was more absurdest than existentialist: there is an entire faction of argument that Beckett doesnt write to find meaning/questions/answers, but actually writes simply as nonconformity to the patterns of thought that humanity has exerted thus far.

Perhaps considering his works as a whole; but I feel that Godot has, intentional or not, strong ties to existentialism. But like I said, there's some of disagreement over what existentialism really stands for.

I much prefer conventional absurdism (like Ionesco) to classical absurdism (like Beckett). Ionesco does away with writing and literary norms, Beckett does away with idealistic norms. What these playwrights have in common, however, is that while they both recognize and validate their absurdest agenda, they reccomend and acknowledge that life is easier and better if you ignore them. Which basically argues that knowledge isnt power. It's weird, paradoxical, absurdest crap. I love it.

I don't think I've read any Ionesco before actually. I'll give it a look.

[Blexican]

god dammit i hear you loud and clear. Girls... The ones i fall for like have this thing to where it seems they know what there talking about and has great insight, but then when i ask questions or converse with them some more they have absolutely no clue. Im glad your not doing drugs bro, of course u got that a million times but theres one more.

And your right, arguing, people cutting you off in traffic, people are so worked up about it because they need to vent some feelings. Whether they vent because there pissed and just wanna argue, or care about someone cutting u off because your uncle or something died in an accident. Or simply because they need something exciting in there life, or need attention.

[meat.eater]

Well you might be right, but when I first read it, it got me on the road to at least asking a bunch of questions that I hadn't thought to ask before. Dirka's post seemed more confusion than hate anyhow. Post edited...



Perhaps considering his works as a whole; but I feel that Godot has, intentional or not, strong ties to existentialism. But like I said, there's some of disagreement over what existentialism really stands for.



I don't think I've read any Ionesco before actually. I'll give it a look.

Rhinoceros is his most famous. I'm partial to The Bald Soprano (also called "the anti-play"). Good stuff plumsy. :)

[***Duo***]

Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

"Your soldiers problems may not be real to you--but they are real to them."

What you consider stupid or unreasonable, is generally determined by the level of wisdom and intelligence you've achieved during your lifetime. Some people simply cannot move on, because they do not realize what lies ahead, or what is truly more important. (How do you define what IS important?)

The workings of our universe are so vastly complicated, that the variables by which affect it, could never fully be summed up in one post. (Or in one-hundred posts.)

You seem to be... throwing yourself out into an ocean, or perhaps, trying to build a wall all at once.

Brick by brick, Dirka.

This is by far one of the most intriguing topics I've ever discussed, and I'd love to have much more "in-depth" discussions here, for I rarely find any "good" topics to spend my time quelling over on these boards now-a-days.

I suppose the response to this post will let me know how you'd feel towards my involvement in this discussion.


-Duo

[Saphira66]

my problem is...

my girlfriend left me

that is all

*cry*

[Jehutyv.2.0]

So you sit there, reading, clicking, typing, breathing... but you take it all for granted. No, I'm not some religious nut nor am I some sort of conspiracy theorist. I'm just me, Eric... just me realizing we're screwed as a civilization. Let us be completely honest in this thread, cause I want some answers, and I don't care about your previous grudges, hate, love, or any emotion you might hold.

Every time I think I've fallen for a girl, and I do mean every time, I sit back a month later and realize I can't have an intelligent conversation with her. Every time I talk to a conspiracy theorist, a ditsy blond, a religiously entrapped family, I just feel like it's all for nothing. Every time I see something that isn't directed toward figuring out why and how this *u**ing god damned universe works, I feel like it's a waste.

I'm an addict, I've got no problem admitting it. I have not done a single drug for about 2 weeks thanks to Ach (and I'm not kidding, while everyone else was saying it was me just going through a stage he had the balls to tell me what I needed to do). I'm planning on sticking to this path. This is not a drug induced muse. This is actually the reason why I resorted to being a dolt addict in the first place.


Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!
Why? Because we love delicious ****in' sandwiches, that's why.

[Matt 34.5]

We're all dieing, the stupid meaningless things in life make us feel important, and make us feel like we have a reason to be here. They distract us, while we know deep down that one day we'll die, and who we are will completely dissapear the moment we go brain dead.

Unless you have some super-faith in life after death, in which case I gues you're just trying to pass the time?

And I move that at the core of it all, everything we do is stupid.

[Scorpionz]

Too bad people are rich.

[Anarchy_United]

I recomend Calvin and Hobbes. Whenever I'm feeling sad, I read that, and it simply rocks. Or wearing a pirate hat, its been proven by scientists that pirate hats have an awesomeness factor.

[*Sanosuke*]

Time for a primer in existentialism, since it sounds like you're going through a bit of an existential crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_crisis):

The basic idea behind existential philosophy is that the universe is truly empty, there is no god, life has no greater purpose, etc. And therefore when we die, we're dead and that's it, and whatever happens in our lives is, as far as the whole of the universe is concerned, essentially meaningless.

It stands to reason that this can be an incredibly frightening idea. Therefore, to avoid confronting this idea, people have a tendency to fill their lives with things that are trivial. Worrying about bills, chasing girls, doing drugs, playing online games, and so forth. Essentially you are "filling your life" with things, but generally doing it via the path of least resistance.

If this is what you actually believe, the upside is that you are free to place importance on whatever is it you want. There is no overarching plan that you have to follow, and you can make decisions about how to act based on whatever system of values you have.


This is just one way of looking at the world, I'm not trying to start yet another religious "debate". But it sounds like something you personally might want to explore a bit. Also the term existentialism is hard to define exactly, and different ideas between popular existential philosophers/writers/etc.

EDIT: You should definately read Waiting for Godot in a few months when you're not feeling so down. meat says to read Endgame (http://samuel-beckett.net/endgame.html) instead, though.

His is the best reply yet.

[Smilez]

So you sit there, reading, clicking, typing, breathing... but you take it all for granted. No, I'm not some religious nut nor am I some sort of conspiracy theorist. I'm just me, Eric... just me realizing we're screwed as a civilization. Let us be completely honest in this thread, cause I want some answers, and I don't care about your previous grudges, hate, love, or any emotion you might hold.

Every time I think I've fallen for a girl, and I do mean every time, I sit back a month later and realize I can't have an intelligent conversation with her. Every time I talk to a conspiracy theorist, a ditsy blond, a religiously entrapped family, I just feel like it's all for nothing. Every time I see something that isn't directed toward figuring out why and how this *u**ing god damned universe works, I feel like it's a waste.

I'm an addict, I've got no problem admitting it. I have not done a single drug for about 2 weeks thanks to Ach (and I'm not kidding, while everyone else was saying it was me just going through a stage he had the balls to tell me what I needed to do). I'm planning on sticking to this path. This is not a drug induced muse. This is actually the reason why I resorted to being a dolt addict in the first place.


Riddle me this: Why the **** does everyone care so much about stupid shit? Like arguing on this forum? Like the guy who cut you off in traffic. Like the bills that have to be paid. Like the girl who just passed you off and will fill your thoughts for years. WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

With every breathe we take we all wonder if we will every do something in our lives that will make a difference to someone. That will change their lives for the better, and at the same time let us know that their is a reason for us being alive, and at that on place, at that one moment. All through life people wonder if their ever going to do something life chaging for someone.

People care about stupid little things just to fill up their time so they don't think about how they never reached their dreams. The dreams that we all have when we're little kids and think that the sky is the limit for us.

[Ächilles]

No one's ever found the meaning of life, you can't find the meaning of life, and no one ever will find the meaning of life.

When you accept that is when you'll begin living your life. To spend your time wondering why you're here is the ultimate injustice to inflict upon yourself. Once you accept that you don't hold the capacity to comprehend the nature of things, that is when the very act itself will stop distracting you from living. I realized that, and I've been a lot happier ever since.

Basically what it comes down to is having the courage to surrender yourself to something you don't understand. I'm not saying "God," or any other religious pseudo-explanation to the underworkings of the universe. I'm saying you need to accept that some force you can't explain put you here, and you're better off accepting it and embracing it rather than trying to explain it.

I've always looked at it like so. Imagine you're standing on a cliff in the dark. You can hear the crashing of waves beneath you, and feel the energy of the ocean all around you. But you can't see it, you only know it's there on the intuition of the situation, and you accept that. Completely blinded by the dark, you leap off the cliff. You can't say how you'll hit the water, if it will catch you, if it'll hurt, if it's deep enough, how it got there or if there is any water at all. All you can do is fall, and on the way down, do your best to be a good person.

[dirka dirka]

It's sad if the world's excuse for not wanting to intellectually move forward could be categorized in the realms of our broken dreams, simply just because that is how it's always been, or even being content in finding their counterpart.

This really isn't about that empty feeling you get if you ask questions such as "Why are we here?" or "What if we weren't here?"

The basic idea behind existential philosophy is that the universe is truly empty, there is no god, life has no greater purpose, etc. And therefore when we die, we're dead and that's it, and whatever happens in our lives is, as far as the whole of the universe is concerned, essentially meaningless.
This just feels, to me, like an excuse. It's like saying just because I think there is no meaning means there never will be and we shouldn't try to figure it out because we'll be disappointed.

Dirka the answer you are looking for can be found in just about any major religion. The trick is actually believing it...
Also, define "moving on as a civilization." Because I feel we are "moving along," just fine. In some areas more than others, but "moving on," none the less.
I don't think blind faith is what I'm looking for. Moving on as a civilization means that those who actually want to intellectually move forward actually do intellectually move forward and a very large percent of people are working toward a greater goal of intellect.

What you consider stupid or unreasonable, is generally determined by the level of wisdom and intelligence you've achieved during your lifetime. Some people simply cannot move on, because they do not realize what lies ahead, or what is truly more important. (How do you define what IS important?)
I agree. However, there are a lot of intelligent people out there wrapped up in stupid and unimportant ideas. Seeing this happen to an intelligent person breaks my heart. I mean, occasionally we get somewhere from one of these stupid ideas, but this advancement does not relate at all with the certainty of the intelligent person's stupid idea. For some reason when an intelligent person gets wrapped up in an idea this stupid, they raise confirmation bias to an art form. I've argued countless times with intelligent people wrapped up in stupid ideas only to end the argument with their belief disproved but still a fact in their mind.

No one's ever found the meaning of life, you can't find the meaning of life, and no one ever will find the meaning of life.

Basically what it comes down to is having the courage to surrender yourself to something you don't understand. I'm not saying "God," or any other religious pseudo-explanation to the underworkings of the universe. I'm saying you need to accept that some force you can't explain put you here, and you're better off accepting it and embracing it rather than trying to explain it.
I disagree, to a degree. I'm not exactly looking for a meaning. Maybe a better word for it is an explanation. The ability to know exactly how this universe came about, however not why it came about. I want a mathematically and scientifically sound basis for existence that indulges every act the physical world might take. Maybe something in the area of Quantum Physics or Eleventh Dimensional Theory (M-Theory).
Even more than wanting those answers, I want civilization to want those answers.

[Learz]

Greed.
Power.
Contempt.

Feel free to add your own.

[ChainHeart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvNhw888XmM

u want civilization to advance intellectually? If everyone does reach this "intellectual enlightenment" which u speak of, our civilization would ironicly become stagant due to the realization of the insignificant impact which human beings have in this world.

The world we live in is a world driven by instinct (food, money, family) and emotion (happiness, love, jealousy), and it will stay that way.

[plusminus]

This just feels, to me, like an excuse. It's like saying just because I think there is no meaning means there never will be and we shouldn't try to figure it out because we'll be disappointed.
That's not quite right; it's not meant to be an excuse. Rather, once you decide there isn't any greater cosmic purpose to life, you are free to decide what kind of meaning your life should have. Getting everyone else to share in this meaning, of course, is a whole other matter...

I want a mathematically and scientifically sound basis for existence that indulges every act the physical world might take. Maybe something in the area of Quantum Physics or Eleventh Dimensional Theory (M-Theory).
While I fully agree that the pursuit of such things is worthwhile, I'm not convinced a total explanation will ever be possible. As an atheist I don't believe in humans being the pinnacle of life around whom the whole universe revolves, but rather that we're here mostly by chance. As such, I feel it's entirely possible that there are aspects to existence that are simply beyond our grasp.

Even more than wanting those answers, I want civilization to want those answers.
This is a tricky one. How do you propose to make this happen? There are people in the modern world who reject the idea that the earth is older than 6500 years. Perhaps you can argue that they don't represent the whole of civilization, but the point is it's quite difficult to get someone to care about what you want them to care about.

[Wizzy`]

Yeah, i'm about to be completely useless to this thread but..

<3 Dirka.

[KBHoleN1]

I pooped my pants.

[Wizzy`]

oh, and also..
The Meaning of Life = Work

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I pooped my pants.
Threadjack'd.

[***Duo***]

I agree. However, there are a lot of intelligent people out there wrapped up in stupid and unimportant ideas. Seeing this happen to an intelligent person breaks my heart. I mean, occasionally we get somewhere from one of these stupid ideas, but this advancement does not relate at all with the certainty of the intelligent person's stupid idea. For some reason when an intelligent person gets wrapped up in an idea this stupid, they raise confirmation bias to an art form. I've argued countless times with intelligent people wrapped up in stupid ideas only to end the argument with their belief disproved but still a fact in their mind.

Simply to begin into this...
Would you say an example of this is religion?


-Duo

[Mephistopheles]

Dirka, I recommend reading 'The Brothers Karamazov' by Dostoevsky if you haven't yet...as Kurt Vonnegut once said: "Everything one needs to know about life can be found in The Brothers Karamazov".

[dirka dirka]

Simply to begin into this...
Would you say an example of this is religion?
-Duo
I would. Let us not argue about religion though.

Threadjack'd.
Please, and I'm asking nicely, will you not post here. Also, KBHoleN1, I'd appreciate the same removal of remarks hereafter.

That's not quite right; it's not meant to be an excuse. Rather, once you decide there isn't any greater cosmic purpose to life, you are free to decide what kind of meaning your life should have. Getting everyone else to share in this meaning, of course, is a whole other matter...
See, this paradigm actually defeats itself. You say that once you realize there is no purpose, that you can make your own. Only, firstly, realizing there is no purpose is actually you making your own purpose originally because it's a self-truth (you can't show this truth to anybody else, so... faith...). Thus, secondly, if you redefine something, and especially something that has no purpose, you're reconstructing that something completely. For instance, and this is a poor example, if you redefine the number 0 as 3 then the entire mathematical system is reconstructed and no longer applies to this universe. Herein, you might conclude that if you could redefine the purpose of our universe from null to effectual you actually might be able to change the universe as an entirety just because of opinion? One also might argue that purpose would be a quality embedded simply by existing and not a quality given by interactions with other existing purposes.

While I fully agree that the pursuit of such things is worthwhile, I'm not convinced a total explanation will ever be possible. As an atheist I don't believe in humans being the pinnacle of life around whom the whole universe revolves, but rather that we're here mostly by chance. As such, I feel it's entirely possible that there are aspects to existence that are simply beyond our grasp.
I'm glad you qualify yourself as an Atheist before introducing your reflection on if it's possible to ever have a total explanation and therein believing there likely is not, because now I have a point where to show that your ideals are conflicting. Please, do not take this the wrong way, and feel free to tell me I'm wrong, because a lot of what this upcoming paragraph represents might be based on semantics and opinion.

You say you are not convinced a total explanation will ever be possible but you're not convinced it is impossible. However, by saying you're an Atheist, you're actually saying you're convinced a total explanation is possible. If you can come out and say, beyond any doubt, that the fact is there is no God then you must believe we as a civilization will eventually be able to prove that. Concurrently, disproof of a God would require understanding of every aspect of the universe. You can't prove there is no God without first proving that every action in this universe was of a physical origin and actually, I'd go as far to say you must prove this about every action outside this universe as well.

Personally, I'm agnostic, because I don't know. Herein, I don't know if we ever could define everything. We do agree on the one important thing though, that trying to figure it out right now is what is important.

This is a tricky one. How do you propose to make this happen? There are people in the modern world who reject the idea that the earth is older than 6500 years. Perhaps you can argue that they don't represent the whole of civilization, but the point is it's quite difficult to get someone to care about what you want them to care about.
I don't propose it happen, I don't believe it ever will at this point in our cultural revolution. I just wish it was.

[Hoolwath]

This is annoying. And childish. Also the level of the conversation is never going to be unique. There are hundreds of discussions like these all over the internet. Answers to all your questions are all over the internet too. If not internet then books. Also there has been nothing said above the average high-school knowledge.

You say people are wrapped up in stupid ideas. This is your stupid idea. Pretending you want to know the purpose of life yet making very little to actually prove it. I seriously do not know which one of your questions could not be answered by quantum physics or by common sense.

I think that most of your friends are below your age, Dirka. You have no one to compare yourself to. That makes you think about useless things like these. You will come to no other conclusion that many people before you came to and how exactly did it help them? Conversations like these are juvenile and annoying. Did I say annoying?

[Dresicos]

To survive or die.

[dirka dirka]

This is annoying. And childish.
I agree, your reply is annoying and childish. Why did you post it then? Actually, no... I've met children that have more insight than your post did into this topic. We'll stick with annoying.

Also the level of the conversation is never going to be unique. There are hundreds of discussions like these all over the internet. Answers to all your questions are all over the internet too. If not internet then books. Also there has been nothing said above the average high-school knowledge.
I don't expect answers. I want answers. I expect more questions. If you claim you can answer me, you're mistaken. If you claim you can discuss this with me, then let's play, that's the game I like. I'm nothing unique, I never claimed I was.

You say people are wrapped up in stupid ideas. This is your stupid idea. Pretending you want to know the purpose of life yet making very little to actually prove it. I seriously do not know which one of your questions could not be answered by quantum physics or by common sense.
I'm glad you posted this exact paragraph, Hoolwath.

This isn't my stupid little idea. Find me someone who hasn't mused these thoughts. I'd bet this someone would represent a very small portion of the planet. If this idea is stupid then it's civilization's stupid idea.

I don't pretend I want to know the purpose.

I seriously doubt a science so incomplete such as Quantum Physics could answer anything I've posed here. Common sense? Not that common, buddy.

I think that most of your friends are below your age, Dirka. You have no one to compare yourself to. That makes you think about useless things like these. You will come to no other conclusion that many people before you came to and how exactly did it help them? Conversations like these are juvenile and annoying. Did I say annoying?
Hoolwath, nothing you've posted here has helped. Why must you post annoying things? In fact, I'm trying to find something you were right about in that entire post... well, you did correctly identify my alias as dirka, but that's about the entirety of the correctness.

Your reply is trivial, it will not be regarded to.

[Hoolwath]

You are right. I could have just ignored this thread. It is just you know... like... playing against the defualt... Most of the default players are really stupid they keep making the stupidest moves and asking the stupidest questions until it becomes so annoying you just can't ignore it anymore.


Imagine I just told you to press F5 with my previous post and lets leave it at that.

[dirka dirka]

Okay... so now that the evident self-explained noob tactic to participating in my thread has been tried and dismissed, let's get back on track.

To survive or die.
This isn't about life, really. It goes beyond that. Think bigger. Cliche: Larger than life.

[Hoolwath]

It would be really cool if you could just forget about this thread for your own good. You will definitely get through the phase you are currently in and it depends on you how much time will you waste on things like these that are nothing more than pointless. You should start to live your life, be a rebel if you want, just take action, do not ponder and waste your valuable time.

[plusminus]

See, this paradigm actually defeats itself. You say that once you realize there is no purpose, that you can make your own. Only, firstly, realizing there is no purpose is actually you making your own purpose originally because it's a self-truth (you can't show this truth to anybody else, so... faith...). Thus, secondly, if you redefine something, and especially something that has no purpose, you're reconstructing that something completely. For instance, and this is a poor example, if you redefine the number 0 as 3 then the entire mathematical system is reconstructed and no longer applies to this universe. Herein, you might conclude that if you could redefine the purpose of our universe from null to effectual you actually might be able to change the universe as an entirety just because of opinion? One also might argue that purpose would be a quality embedded simply by existing and not a quality given by interactions with other existing purposes.
I think you're overcomplicating things, maybe? I'm not seeking to redefine the purpose of life. I'm saying I'm free to do with my life as I please, because there is no person (or deity) that can impose a path on me which I am supposed to follow.

This doesn't mean I go around breaking laws and doing completely as I please; there is still the matter of consequence. However, in terms of a greater "Why am I here at all?" question, the answer is essentially "because that's how it happened".

Anyhow, you start to lose me a bit in the next paragraph...

You say you are not convinced a total explanation will ever be possible but you're not convinced it is impossible.
Correct, I doubt a complete 100% explanation is likely, but I have no way of knowing for sure. Some tens, hundreds, thousands of years or longer, it may be that human beings are in full understanding of the universe.

However, by saying you're an Atheist, you're actually saying you're convinced a total explanation is possible. If you can come out and say, beyond any doubt, that the fact is there is no God then you must believe we as a civilization will eventually be able to prove that.
How am I saying that? When I say "I'm an Atheist" it means I feel, based on my understanding of the universe, of human beings, of the history of the earth, and so forth, that our species' existence is not due to any greater sentient being, but essentially due to chance. I certainly can't prove that right now, nor do I feel anyone in this present day and age can. Someone at some point may be able to prove and explain this, but of this I have my doubts.

Perhaps I am more accurately described as a "non-theist" than an atheist?

Concurrently, disproof of a God would require understanding of every aspect of the universe. You can't prove there is no God without first proving that every action in this universe was of a physical origin and actually, I'd go as far to say you must prove this about every action outside this universe as well.
I feel no need to undeniably disprove the existance of a God. You could compare this to a religious faith if you must; but that which informs my "faith" are human-verifiable experiments, data, and history.

Personally, I'm agnostic, because I don't know.
Ultimately I don't "know" either. But science as it is right now can never be completely sure of anything :rolleyes:

I don't propose it happen, I don't believe it ever will at this point in our cultural revolution. I just wish it was.
I have no problem agreeing with that.

Please, do not take this the wrong way, and feel free to tell me I'm wrong, because a lot of what this upcoming paragraph represents might be based on semantics and opinion.
What kind of discussion isn't at least partially based on semantics and opinion? ;) Anyhow, don't worry about hurting my feelings or whatnot. If you, or anyone else in the thread, is interested in carrying on this discussion then I'd much prefer if we can all agree that we're friends, and continue in the most straightforward way possible. I do hope this is, in at least some small way, helping you with your concerns in the original post.

[CRX687]

WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?!

Because we don't know how? Part of the fun is trying to figure out how to change the world.

Think of yourself as significant enough to the big scheme of things to exist and be self reflective, but insignificant enough to actually know the big scheme of things.

[Mithrandir]

I know this is a little late, and I know my suggestion will likely be ignored as the ravings of a religious fundamentalist (whatever that is) anyway, but whatever. I'd recommend reading the book of Ecclesiastes. It isn't very long, you could probably read it in ten or fifteen minutes. I think you would relate to the description of the problem. Based on our previous encounters, I don't expect you would appreciate the solution to the problem, but consider it nonetheless. Peace.

[uniquinous]

EDIT: nvm

[EatMine]

I'd recommend reading the book of Ecclesiastes. I think you would relate to the description of the problem. Based on our previous encounters, I don't expect you would appreciate the solution to the problem, but consider it nonetheless. Peace.So basically, when he is asking "WHY CAN'T WE MOVE ON AS A CIVILIZATION?", you suggest him to read a 2000 year old text about the exact same problem?
I guess this is a good way of making him realize even more, that there is "no new thing under the sun" or to put it in his words: that's the way this "*u**ing god damned universe works" ...

And, in case my interpretation of Kohelet isn't wrong, part of the the solution is to "drink thy wine with a merry heart" and "live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest".
Hmmm, altough I think this is pretty good advice, I guess telling him to consider that right after he said that he "stopped doing drugs" and "falling for girls is all for nothing", won't really help him ...
Peace. :)


Dirkster, since you want an honest answer, here is mine: there are 6 billion solutions to this riddle and you're completely and utterly alone in solving it for yourself.

[***Duo***]

I would. Let us not argue about religion though.

I don't intend on arguing about something that no living man can prove.

So, you'd consider an intelligent person a fool to be wrapped up in religion?
Why? Relating back to my main point, this has a lot to do with what is real to them, and what may seem foolish to you. You cannot ignore the decisions that influence us as human beings upon birth to maturity--many of these things that you may consider "stupid" are deeply rooted due to something of an unknown nature to those that are not that person.

Why is it that someone has to be concerned with how clean their house is? They may have A.D.D. While that seems completely and utterly ridiculous to you or I, it is something real to them, and for that reason they care.

Now, I believe we've somewhat cleared more concrete cases. (I'm just trying to lead us to a focal point of conversation because this topic is just so broad.)

For cases that don't relate to diseases, or deeply rooted (even subconscious) thoughts, you're wondering why they obsess over them?

Example: "I'm really mad today. I didn't get the $80 pair of pants that looked as though they've already gone through the forest and back. That's so stupid that mom wouldn't buy them for me!"


-Duo

[Scorpionz]

why not buy a good pair and walk through the forest and back yourself? :P

[dirka dirka]

I think I might have it. Maybe, to a degree.
The answer is nothing short of our civilization being incredibly stupid.

So incredibly stupid on a genetic level that if a human attempts to a think about this subject our minds get lost in thought and end up at questions that don't relate to the real questions we want answered.

For Example: What if there was nothing?
Result: Empty feeling?
Reality: So what?
Answer: Then there would be nothing.


I think I need to figure out exactly what I want to be asking now.

[pils]

I don't think you can simplify it that far. There are tons of unanswered questions, our reason for being here is just one of them. This question isn't much different than a 4 year old wondering where babies come from. Yet this 4 year old usually finds an answer to suit him, he doesn't get side tracked with questions that have nothing to do with baby making...
But if you are saying that some kind of gene or body related "thing," is actually preventing us from coming to a satisfactory conclusion as to the questions you are asking, then maybe the question you should be asking is "why is that 'thing,' keeping us from answering universe related questions there?"
Maybe it was set in place by some deity? Aliens? Some sort of evolutionary phase, in which people's brains were exploding once they figured out the answers to these questions?

[Realist]

I feel kind of the same way you do dirka. It would be nice to live in grown up land where people didn't just believe obviously false things or show overmuch interest in banalities. But I say that because I'm looking to receive wisdom and insight from others and coming up short, a lot--the ideas other people have come up with are for the most part just wrong. I don't have anything better. Anyways, I have nothing to add except to say, if you think you have found anything real, tell it.

[plusminus]

But I say that because I'm looking to receive wisdom and insight from others and coming up short, a lot--the ideas other people have come up with are for the most part just wrong.

Assuming you're talking about scientists, philosophers, theologians etc., and not just people you meet on internet forums and whatnot, that suggests to me that the right answers (much less the right questions) might be about self-discovery, and are only going to come from within. Is that a valid assumption?

[Realist]

Assuming you're talking about scientists, philosophers, theologians etc., and not just people you meet on internet forums and whatnot, that suggests to me that the right answers (much less the right questions) might be about self-discovery, and are only going to come from within. Is that a valid assumption?

No. Actually I think the right answers might have to come from self-discovery because no one has been clever enough to find the answers yet. But that's not to say that it isn't teachable in theory. Civilizations can grow up. Science was invented just a few centuries ago--for all of human history before that people had wrong ideas about a whole lot of things we (some of us) know now. At that point in time in the past self-discovery (i.e., discovering things by yourself) was the only way to go because everyone before and around you was wrong. So did Newton, Darwin, etc.

I'm not talking about poorly defined cliches like "what is the meaning of life" which are unanswerable (out of context) by form due to difficulty of precise interpretation. But our various anxieties about big picture stuff, yes, I think progress can be made in areas that no one in our culture at this time that I know of has made progress, with the same faith that I think science will continue to discover novel truths despite the past failure of anything previous at finding same.

[plusminus]

No. Actually I think the right answers might have to come from self-discovery because no one has been clever enough to find the answers yet. But that's not to say that it isn't teachable in theory. Civilizations can grow up. Science was invented just a few centuries ago--for all of human history before that people had wrong ideas about a whole lot of things we (some of us) know now. At that point in time in the past self-discovery (i.e., discovering things by yourself) was the only way to go because everyone before and around you was wrong. So did Newton, Darwin, etc.

I'm not talking about poorly defined cliches like "what is the meaning of life" which are unanswerable (out of context) by form due to difficulty of precise interpretation. But our various anxieties about big picture stuff, yes, I think progress can be made in areas that no one in our culture at this time that I know of has made progress, with the same faith that I think science will continue to discover novel truths despite the past failure of anything previous at finding same.

Ah, I get where you're coming from now. And I agree with that assessment, apart from my earlier doubts about humans ever being able to fully explain everything in the universe. New knowledge is built on past knowledge though, so it's certainly a worthwhile pursuit.

[Wizzy`]

So is dirka like..a changed man?

[dirka dirka]

Realist, you couldn't have hit the nail on the head any better. Especially on the matter of intelligent people believing obviously false things. In fact, even your abstraction on people raising confirmation bias like it is their calling when they feel they've an idea worth thought is painfully real. I'm in the same grain of sand though, miles deep in societies subconscious collusion only catching a glimpse of the sun when the waves refract it just right.


I'm not changed. I'm simply done with the things that are inherently pointless, herein falling in a domain definable as futile. If I feel that what I am doing will only be meaningless when post critiqued then I'll reject further action on that subject. A big portion of this concept, as far as the category of communication goes, falls solely into the category of the appreciation of opinion or lack there of.