Moral Dilemma - What would you do?

[R G]

I have a moral dilemma I am facing...

About a month ago I was traveling through some hick-town in Georgia. In this town there is a four lane highway and I was traveling at the speed 74mph. Now this road could easily pass for an interstate, but it's not. The speed limit changes along this road and unfortunatly the local authorities use this as somewhat of a tax generator by having speed traps along the stretches where the speed limits change.

Well I was given a speeding citation for 74mph in a 55mph zone. It's kind of been in the back of my mind as my trial date is not until the end of the month......So I wake up this morning and as usual I watch the news to see what happened while I was asleep. Well ironically the first story I see is a story on a deputy sherriff in Oconee County Georgia that was killed while directing school traffic and they flashed his face up on the screen. I was immediately taken back as I realized that this is the same officer who wrote me a ticket. I hate to hear that the guy passed away as he seemed kind and was courtesy...he was just doing his job, eventhough I know that the road I was traveling on could easily handle 74mph and alot of cars go about that speed.

Later today I think to myself....I could now easily go to court and plead Not Guilty and since the officer can not make an apperance I would get off..... but I know I was most likely going that speed and I would feel guilty of taking advantage of the officers untimely death.

So what would you do?

[The Anti]

That's a toughy man. I really don't know. Talk to your lawyer maybe? Or some family members..they'll offer you some good advice. I can't imagine having to think about taking advantage of his death, but setting yourself free at the same time.

But what would the penalty be if you were found guilty? Just measure that with the fact that the officer died. that should be a start

[Medemia]

Sometimes you have to look beyond your wallet and think about integrity. Could you look at yourself and think you did the right thing if you did plead not guilty? And then, could you live with that?
Morally, you should live up to your consequences. That's living with integrity. I'm sure you will hear lots of advice to get away with it and that is the temptation because you probably can.

[iceman2001]

I have a moral dilemma I am facing...

About a month ago I was traveling through some hick-town in Georgia. In this town there is a four lane highway and I was traveling at the speed 74mph. Now this road could easily pass for an interstate, but it's not. The speed limit changes along this road and unfortunatly the local authorities use this as somewhat of a tax generator by having speed traps along the stretches where the speed limits change.

Well I was given a speeding citation for 74mph in a 55mph zone. It's kind of been in the back of my mind as my trial date is not until the end of the month......So I wake up this morning and as usual I watch the news to see what happened while I was asleep. Well ironically the first story I see is a story on a deputy sherriff in Oconee County Georgia that was killed while directing school traffic and they flashed his face up on the screen. I was immediately taken back as I realized that this is the same officer who wrote me a ticket. I hate to hear that the guy passed away as he seemed kind and was courtesy...he was just doing his job, eventhough I know that the road I was traveling on could easily handle 74mph and alot of cars go about that speed.

Later today I think to myself....I could now easily go to court and plead Not Guilty and since the officer can not make an apperance I would get off..... but I know I was most likely going that speed and I would feel guilty of taking advantage of the officers untimely death.

So what would you do?

The death of the police officer sets up the ability for you to get away with not getting a ticket. It should not be calculated into your decision on whether to pay for the ticket or not.

The question you have to ask yourself is If you had a chance to get away with not paying this ticket and the cop was still alive, would you do it? If the answer is yes, I'd definately plead not guilty.

[The Butcher]

If you haven't paid the fine already, then you have already pleaded not guilty.

Then only thing left is to go to court, you don't really have a choice in the matter anyway.

the only way you plead guilty is if you pay the fine as soon as you get the ticket, via the mail.

[Hellblazer]

Hell, that's a one-in-a-million freak chance. I'd probably take it since it's such a minor thing. I mean, in the long run who's going to care about a little speeding?

[uniquinous]

regardless of how you think the road looks, if the speed limit was posted, you are guilty. you know that.

go to court. plead guilty. explain your case, including the facts about the officer (and that you know you could have gotten away with it altogether), and kindly ask for a reduction/dismissal.

plead both sides of the case, and I'd bet the judge will be pretty light. that should pretty much give you a really good chance at really lessening things, AND be moral.

[Catra]

The death of the police officer sets up the ability for you to get away with not getting a ticket. It should not be calculated into your decision on whether to pay for the ticket or not.

The question you have to ask yourself is If you had a chance to get away with not paying this ticket and the cop was still alive, would you do it? If the answer is yes, I'd definately plead not guilty.

I'd have to agree with iceman here.

Just make sure you can look yourself in the eye in the morning.

[Hatchet Klown]

I'd plead not guilty... but that's only becuase I just got my license back from a 60 day suspension. :(

[X-Legend-X XF]

pay the fine, even though you could get away with it. would it be worth a few bucks. its just the right thing to do but its your own choise.

I like what uni said
regardless of how you think the road looks, if the speed limit was posted, you are guilty. you know that.

go to court. plead guilty. explain your case, including the facts about the officer (and that you know you could have gotten away with it altogether), and kindly ask for a reduction/dismissal.

plead both sides of the case, and I'd bet the judge will be pretty light. that should pretty much give you a really good chance at really lessening things, AND be moral.

BUT you could be caught on a dash cam aswell where they could see you drive by and the officer saying your speed.

its your own life though.

[Gypsy]

I would plead not guilty. Probably without remorse.

[-57-]

I have a moral dilemma I am facing...

I was offered free pork today! But I'm Jewish...


Boy, that's a toughy...

[R G]

hehehehe I don't think I could be Jewish just for the fact that I like bacon so damn much.

[The Anti]

Boy, that's a toughy...

:rofl:

[OFFLINE]

Well then fine couldnt be a life changing amount; but you lieing will prolly haunt you forever

[Hellblazer]

Well then fine couldnt be a life changing amount; but you lieing will prolly haunt you forever

Oh no. Whatever will I do!? I just saved money and I feel bad about it. Wahhh...:rolleyes:

[OFFLINE]

you dont think you will think back and regret how you lied about a 200$ fine?

[Hellblazer]

you dont think you will think back and regret how you lied about a 200$ fine?

Nah. Though I might just do what uniq said. Either way, it's 200 bucks in my pocket and I'd attend the cops memorial or something.

[I MaFiA I]

regardless of how you think the road looks, if the speed limit was posted, you are guilty. you know that.

go to court. plead guilty. explain your case, including the facts about the officer (and that you know you could have gotten away with it altogether), and kindly ask for a reduction/dismissal.

plead both sides of the case, and I'd bet the judge will be pretty light. that should pretty much give you a really good chance at really lessening things, AND be moral.

Nigga please. Fuck that; not guilty. I'd definitely have no regrets.

[ponefish]

So what would you do?

Pay for it at most its like 150 right? and then thats 4 points on your lisence, Insurance rates will most likely not go up if it is a first offense, but then again it depends on the insurance company... all in all, I would go with what Uniquinous said

[shurtugal]

Nigga please. Fuck that; not guilty. I'd definitely have no regrets.

That post was wrong in every way.

I'd go with uniq's advice, you would probably get the lowest possible fine for the speeding, and still have a good conscience.

[I MaFiA I]

That post was wrong in every way.

I'd go with uniq's advice, you would probably get the lowest possible fine for the speeding, and still have a good conscience.

No, fuck you. Go have your girly self-conscience feel good whilst I have the hairier penis and $200 more dollars.

[shurtugal]

Sorry I worked for the cash to not miss $200.

And it's called a shave;).

[xerent]

Totally up to you, but a couple of things:

Paying a fine doesn't absolve the police officer or you of any wrongdoing.

You fell for a speedtrap. It's not like you saw a 55mph sign, said to yourself "Shit, I broke the law.", then went down to the police station and turned yourself in and offered to pay the fine. Ergo, you actually breaking the traffic law has no bearing on your ethos, and you righting your wrong after you got caught will not prevent you from speeding, it will just prevent you from getting caught.

So, you're not feeling guilty about absolving yourself of your crime, it's about you taking advantage of something of someone's death.

But the thing is, you're not actually taking advantage of the unfortunate disaster. Imagine for a moment that heaven exists - This cop is in the clouds, looking upon his loved ones and chilling with all the dead people. Your court date comes and the ghost of the cop notices you miss your court date. He has a talk with St. Peter or whoever it is, and your name goes straight to the 'Hell' list.

Sounds pretty ridiculous, right?

You want to do something in his honor, that's your decision, and it's a decent one to make. Paying $200 to a court isn't my idea of that. If you're all torn up about it, you might find greater meaning in donating it to another cause.

[Matt 34.5]

You want to do something in his honor, that's your decision, and it's a decent one to make. Paying $200 to a court isn't my idea of that. If you're all torn up about it, you might find greater meaning in donating it to another cause.
If you feel guilty about it, that makes more sense to me.

Personally, I only see something as morally wrong if a living thing is someway hurt by it (that was not a crack at the officer, just didn't want to say 'people' and leave out animals and whatnot) or a history is (for lack of a better word) dishonored by it -- in this case the officers memory. I don't think it'd matter much to the cop if you got away with it when he was alive, I don't think "Oh RG's ticket!" was an important spot on his mind, and I don't think anyone will be effected aside from the $X that didn't go to the government. I'd plead not guilty, and if I felt at that time that what I did was morally inappropriate because of the passing officer, then like Xer said do something in his honour, make a donation in his name or something because your sense of morality in this circumstance was obviously appealing to him and not the courtroom.

[mantis33]

The obvious choice is to pay the fine. Why on earth would you try to take advantage of a man dying? I can't believe you're really asking this.

[***Duo***]

Nigga please. Fuck that; not guilty. I'd definitely have no regrets.

That post made you look so cool.


-Duo

[Hugh Junit]

The obvious choice is to pay the fine. Why on earth would you try to take advantage of a man dying? I can't believe you're really asking this.

Give advice or don't, but why pass judgement on him for sharing a thought-provoking story and asking for opinions?
I've never heard of this happening to anyone. Have you?

It's a hell of a lot more interesting than that thread about Mafia's new job at Fatburger.
:cool:

[The AIDS Virus]

Get a radar detector.

[I MaFiA I]

give advice or don't, but why pass judgement on him for sharing a thought-provoking story and asking for opinions?
I've never heard of this happening to anyone. Have you?

It's a hell of a lot more interesting than that thread about mafia's new job at fatburger.
:cool:

lol!!!!!!!!!

[AlabamaBoy]

Morons.

His misfortune was terrible but coupling his misfortune with yours is showing MORE disrespect to him.

Honor him by not paying.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

I wouldn't pay either. He probably wrote more tickets than just yours that day and I bet a lot of those people who got tickets wouldn't pay the ticket either. Or some people who got tickets didn't know this cop passed away and were going to take him to court anyways, and once they got there and found out he passed away they wouldn't have to pay. So is it fair that the ignorant dont have to pay but you who thought about it did? Ignorance is bliss

[I MaFiA I]

I wouldn't pay either. He probably wrote more tickets than just yours that day and I bet a lot of those people who got tickets wouldn't pay the ticket either. Or some people who got tickets didn't know this cop passed away and were going to take him to court anyways, and once they got there and found out he passed away they wouldn't have to pay. So is it fair that the ignorant dont have to pay but you who thought about it did? Ignorance is bliss

Yes but even 2nd graders know two wrongs don't make a right. If all those other people who didn't pay pissed on the dude's grave, would RG's pissing on it make it acceptable?

Ignorance is indeed bliss.

P.S. I still wouldn't pay though, but your points were pretty bad.

[uniquinous]

death of a police officer to get out of paying a ticket - dont give mafia any ideas...

[Angelic-Hotfox]

Yes but even 2nd graders know two wrongs don't make a right. If all those other people who didn't pay pissed on the dude's grave, would RG's pissing on it make it acceptable?

Ignorance is indeed bliss.

P.S. I still wouldn't pay though, but your points were pretty bad.

wtf? being ignorant isnt a wrong. not paying isnt a wrong either. its only wrong if you look at it that way, thinking its wrong is your point of view which is the entire point of this thread. so that whole "two wrongs dont make a right thing" doesn't apply. youre just taking a coincidence that god granted you and you accept the fact that there are things in life beyond your control and sometimes you get lucky. Though it seems like this is dirty luck life is all about using advantages when they are handed to you and dealing with disadvantages when they are dealt to you.

[Catra]

Yes but even 2nd graders know two wrongs don't make a right. If all those other people who didn't pay pissed on the dude's grave, would RG's pissing on it make it acceptable?

Oh my goodness, I actually agree with you...

I get your point though Fox...

[I MaFiA I]

wtf? being ignorant isnt a wrong. not paying isnt a wrong either. its only wrong if you look at it that way, thinking its wrong is your point of view which is the entire point of this thread. so that whole "two wrongs dont make a right thing" doesn't apply. youre just taking a coincidence that god granted you and you accept the fact that there are things in life beyond your control and sometimes you get lucky. Though it seems like this is dirty luck life is all about using advantages when they are handed to you and dealing with disadvantages when they are dealt to you.

You're completely missing my point.

[Blexican]

Even though im going to get told im wrong a billion times. I to would go and plead not guilty. Sometimes life in general cuts you a break, and i personally will take what i can get.

But if you believe in karma, id pay that ticket =P.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

You're completely missing my point.

how am I missing your point? your whole point was two wrong dont make a right and you gave an example of it, therfore your only point was two wrongs dont make a right unless you happen to have size 0.1 black font underneath your post which I missed, I have already told you why your "point" does not apply.

[I MaFiA I]

how am I missing your point? your whole point was two wrong dont make a right and you gave an example of it, therfore your only point was two wrongs dont make a right unless you happen to have size 0.1 black font underneath your post which I missed, I have already told you why your "point" does not apply.

My point does apply. You seem to not be able to comprehend that maybe the saying "two wrongs doesn't make a right" may not have to be taken literally word for word. You probably won't understand that either so let me break it down further. I was not using the saying to imply someone was doing something right or wrong. I was using it simply to state just because everyone else is doing something does NOT mean you should do it.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

My point does apply. You seem to not be able to comprehend that maybe the saying "two wrongs doesn't make a right" may not have to be taken literally word for word. You probably won't understand that either so let me break it down further. I was not using the saying to imply someone was doing something right or wrong. I was using it simply to state just because everyone else is doing something does NOT mean you should do it.

yes and then you should've continued reading when I gave further reason why you shouldnt pay because I moved past that point.

[Dream]

Wwjd?

[I MaFiA I]

yes and then you should've continued reading when I gave further reason why you shouldnt pay because I moved past that point.

So it's OK if you made a flawed point because you gave another one? lol?

[Angelic-Hotfox]

So it's OK if you made a flawed point because you gave another one? lol?

its not a flawed point? its your own point of view that you think its flawed...duh I already went over this.

[*Sanosuke*]

Yes but even 2nd graders know two wrongs don't make a right. If all those other people who didn't pay pissed on the dude's grave, would RG's pissing on it make it acceptable?

Ignorance is indeed bliss.

P.S. I still wouldn't pay though, but your points were pretty bad.

Molly is right. Since when was human kind 100% moralistic though?

P.S. 2 wrongs do make a right. If a wrong was a negative action and you're multiplying....(-) x (-) = (+) I win.

[I MaFiA I]

its not a flawed point? its your own point of view that you think its flawed...duh I already went over this.

You're unbelievable. Seriously.

[Catra]

Why would Jesus be speeding?

[I MaFiA I]

P.S. 2 wrongs do make a right. If a wrong was a negative action and you're multiplying....(-) x (-) = (+) I win.

No, you are wrong. In my morals, killing someone is wrong. Having sexual intercourse with the dead is wrong. If I was to fuck the dead body of a person I murdered, It would not reverse the effects of killing the person and fucking it. No good, or positive, would have been done, and it would still be negative.

With that said, consider that everyone has a different set of morals, which would then give the equation a variable, thus changing the outcome infinitely.

Or you could stop being a tool and realize that two wrongs do not make a right and I would still be correct.

Either way, I win.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

You're unbelievable. Seriously.

im sorry my intellect is beyond my years but try and keep up ;]

[*Sanosuke*]

No, you are wrong. In my morals, killing someone is wrong. Having sexual intercourse with the dead is wrong. If I was to fuck the dead body of a person I murdered, It would not reverse the effects of killing the person and fucking it. No good, or positive, would have been done, and it would still be negative.

With that said, consider that everyone has a different set of morals, which would then give the equation a variable, thus changing the outcome infinitely.

Or you could stop being a tool and realize that two wrongs do not make a right and I would still be correct.

Either way, I win.

Exactly. The variable would change people's morals drastically. So this means people would see that you not being a necropheliac or a murderer would be completely outrageous if they believe they are moralistically correct for killing or screwing the dead. Your points are opinionated. Not fact. Gtfo.

Done here. If you reply, don't expect an answer.

[I MaFiA I]

im sorry my intellect is beyond my years but try and keep up ;]
I'll try. LOL
Exactly. The variable would change people's morals drastically. So this means people would see that you not being a necropheliac or a murderer would be completely outrageous if they believe they are moralistically correct for killing or screwing the dead. Your points are opinionated. Not fact. Gtfo.

Done here. If you reply, don't expect an answer.

Mark of a sore loser.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

I'll try. LOL


Mark of a sore loser.

are you "LOL"ing because you know you cant do it? im sorry you lack such self confidence

[*Sanosuke*]

I'll try. LOL


Mark of a sore loser.

Okay. I lied. You don't have a response. Therefore you lose.

Hah. Suck it. /immaturity strikes again

[BrownGuy]

Mark of a sore loser.

You are a retard. and a loser. Oh, and your entirely wrong.
Molly <3

[I MaFiA I]

This is absolutely hilarious. I have proven this Hotfox chick wrong in a span of like 3 posts, and even clarified that I was NOT saying paying or not paying is good or bad, and she can't see that, and the broad keeps posting "that is yoor opeenyun u noob i got teh smartz cuz i have poosay" so I lose. This forum is full of complete dipshits and I refuse to structure or attempt to use intelligence in any of my future posts.

If you thought I was annoying before, watch this.

[emerald slasher]

Plead Not guilty, and take the money and donate it too a foundation that will acutally put it to good use....

[Angelic-Hotfox]

This is absolutely hilarious. I have proven this Hotfox chick wrong in a span of like 3 posts, and even clarified that I was NOT saying paying or not paying is good or bad, and she can't see that, and the broad keeps posting "that is yoor opeenyun u noob i got teh smartz cuz i have poosay" so I lose. This forum is full of complete dipshits and I refuse to structure or attempt to use intelligence in any of my future posts.

If you thought I was annoying before, watch this.

sighhh soo sad....so so sad
I pity you

[I MaFiA I]

sighhh soo sad....so so sad
I pity you

idc if u pity me stfu dum girl u dunno wut u talkn bout

[BrownGuy]

idc if u pity me stfu dum girl u dunno wut u talkn bout

I love how you, of all people is saying this. Do us a favor and put yourself in a stove. :)

[Angelic-Hotfox]

idc if u pity me stfu dum girl u dunno wut u talkn bout

lol look he goes from talking with perfect grammar and trying to be all smart to being all hard and gangstaa again. lol "ohhhhh scariiii" :rolleyes:

[I MaFiA I]

wow ur racest dude dont even talk do u no wut tha jews had to go threw man wow i feel sorry for ur ma

[I MaFiA I]

lol look he goes from talking with perfect grammar and trying to be all smart to being all hard and gangstaa again. lol "ohhhhh scariiii" :rolleyes:

ya im gangsta u better b scared stupid girl bend ovar and do yo job

[Lonely Tylenol]

Molly is right. Since when was human kind 100% moralistic though?

P.S. 2 wrongs do make a right. If a wrong was a negative action and you're multiplying....(-) x (-) = (+) I win.

You don't multiply wrongs. You add them.

So your equation should look more like this:
(-) + (-) = (-)

While your situation is mathematically true, it's fundamentally irrelevant to the situation, since when a wrong is done as a reaction to another wrong, it adds to that wrong, it doesn't multiply it.

Example:
You kill someone.

A family member of that person kills you in revenge.

Does the product of these two wrongs produce a net positive (as in your situation, [-] x [-] = [+]), where the two deaths would probably result in a net gain in life, or does the sum of the two wrongs produce a net negative (as in my situation, [-] + [-] = [greater -]), where the end result is equivalent to the total of the two wrongs combined (1 kill + 1 kill = 2 dead bodies)?

So I declare double shenannigans on you, first for using a premise which is categorically untrue and second for trying to legitimize it using bad math.

wtf? being ignorant isnt a wrong. not paying isnt a wrong either. its only wrong if you look at it that way, thinking its wrong is your point of view which is the entire point of this thread. so that whole "two wrongs dont make a right thing" doesn't apply. youre just taking a coincidence that god granted you and you accept the fact that there are things in life beyond your control and sometimes you get lucky. Though it seems like this is dirty luck life is all about using advantages when they are handed to you and dealing with disadvantages when they are dealt to you.

In Socratic thought, being ignorant is the greatest wrong.

Not paying is also a wrong if you try to justify the first wrong by committing a second.

I don't believe any morally conscious person could come to the conclusion that God "grants" people the right to do wrong in this world without consequence. In fact, that's pretty much the basic premise of this half-baked "free will" spoken about in the Bible--that, while we have the ability to choose right and wrong for ourselves, we are still punished if we choose wrong.

Appeals to higher powers does not constitute as a viable argument against anything, let alone "two wrongs don't make a right", and especially when that appeal to higher powers is done with the specific intent to do something you know is inherently wrong.

Shenannigans on you.

Whatever happened to altruism?

Finally, BrownGuy. Your posts epitomize the absence of intelligent thought in this final page of the thread. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion or are you going to keep bashing Mafia? Let me know so I can know who to skip over next time, as that was a remarkable waste of 30 seconds of my life.

[I MaFiA I]

You don't multiply wrongs. You add them.

So your equation should look more like this:
(-) + (-) = (-)

While your situation is mathematically true, it's fundamentally irrelevant to the situation, since when a wrong is done as a reaction to another wrong, it adds to that wrong, it doesn't multiply it.

Example:
You kill someone.

A family member of that person kills you in revenge.

Does the product of these two wrongs produce a net positive (as in your situation, [-] x [-] = [+]), where the two deaths would probably result in a net gain in life, or does the sum of the two wrongs produce a net negative (as in my situation, [-] + [-] = [greater -]), where the end result is equivalent to the total of the two wrongs combined (1 kill + 1 kill = 2 dead bodies)?

So I declare double shenannigans on you, first for using a premise which is categorically untrue and second for trying to legitimize it using bad math.



In Socratic thought, being ignorant is the greatest wrong.

Not paying is also a wrong if you try to justify the first wrong by committing a second.

I don't believe any morally conscious person could come to the conclusion that God "grants" people the right to do wrong in this world without consequence. In fact, that's pretty much the basic premise of this half-baked "free will" spoken about in the Bible--that, while we have the ability to choose right and wrong for ourselves, we are still punished if we choose wrong.

Appeals to higher powers does not constitute as a viable argument against anything, let alone "two wrongs don't make a right", and especially when that appeal to higher powers is done with the specific intent to do something you know is inherently wrong.

Shenannigans on you.

Whatever happened to altruism?

thats just ur opinion u noob u r wrong bcuz god eeznt reel and right n wrong r juzt yoor opeenuns

[BrownGuy]

wow ur racest dude dont even talk do u no wut tha jews had to go threw man wow i feel sorry for ur ma

Fine, I'll give you the choice of you putting yourself in either a microwave, dryer, or washing machine.

[Lonely Tylenol]

thats just ur opinion u noob u r wrong bcuz god eeznt reel and right n wrong r juzt yoor opeenuns

NO U. Also caps.

[*Sanosuke*]

You don't multiply wrongs. You add them.

So your equation should look more like this:
(-) + (-) = (-)

While your situation is mathematically true, it's fundamentally irrelevant to the situation, since when a wrong is done as a reaction to another wrong, it adds to that wrong, it doesn't multiply it.

Example:
You kill someone.

A family member of that person kills you in revenge.

Does the product of these two wrongs produce a net positive (as in your situation, [-] x [-] = [+]), where the two deaths would probably result in a net gain in life, or does the sum of the two wrongs produce a net negative (as in my situation, [-] + [-] = [greater -]), where the end result is equivalent to the total of the two wrongs combined (1 kill + 1 kill = 2 dead bodies)?

So I declare double shenannigans on you, first for using a premise which is categorically untrue and second for trying to legitimize it using bad math.



I know I love shenannigans as much as the next guy but...don't wrongs(negatives) multiply and escalate the situation in life? Kinda like a karma idea. Your actions envoke a multiple of other reactions so why wouldn't your mutiply your wrongs?

Time for my analogy.

Say you kill someone, but because someone killed your friend. Revenge. Karma.

So you take a (-) action(your friend being murdered) and you go to take revenge by murdering the murderer ending up in a negative action. This escalates the situation to a positive note for you but at the same time it causes multiple other situations. The murderers friends would be after you, so more negative reactions. Guilt after the fact would make another negative factor.

You multiply or you can add.

/un-do shenannigans.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

In Socratic thought, being ignorant is the greatest wrong.

Not paying is also a wrong if you try to justify the first wrong by committing a second.

I don't believe any morally conscious person could come to the conclusion that God "grants" people the right to do wrong in this world without consequence. In fact, that's pretty much the basic premise of this half-baked "free will" spoken about in the Bible--that, while we have the ability to choose right and wrong for ourselves, we are still punished if we choose wrong.

Appeals to higher powers does not constitute as a viable argument against anything, let alone "two wrongs don't make a right", and especially when that appeal to higher powers is done with the specific intent to do something you know is inherently wrong.

Shenannigans on you.

Whatever happened to altruism?

Ignorance is bliss is just a saying to convey my message though I do not believe it applies with everything. And im not Socrates so I dont have his thoughts. I do agree that god or a higher divine power gives us the right or free will to choose between right and wrong and those whom do choose wrong will be punished but understand that with the dilema here, the distinction between and right and wrong is not clearly justified. The fact that he was speeding makes it a wrong and his punishment was the ticket but everyone speeds (and im sure you have) and though it is against the law and it is constituted as wrong, RG did say the road he was on sets speed traps and changes the speed limit suddenly as a way of generating revenue, so is his speeding a wrong or was it a mistake he committed due to a simple misunderstanding, which brings us back to the distinction between right and wrong and whether or not if he deserved the ticket in the first place. Now I do understand that the policeman died and it is very tragic but having a cop as a brother believe me when I say the tickets they write they neither usually care that much about if it isnt that serious and that most of the time when you do take a cop to court they are really against showing up or wont' show up at all. And this whole two wrongs dont make a right thing I agree with, I never said that two wrong make a right, im just clarifying that I don't believe a wrong is being commited here based on my views.

[shurtugal]

So what's the verdict R G?

[Catra]

thats just ur opinion u noob u r wrong bcuz god eeznt reel and right n wrong r juzt yoor opeenuns

Dumbass, he was sticking up for you... Kind of.

Ya know, there are some times I agree with you, but others I just want to smack some sense into you.

Anyway, I've got to run. Hopefully when I return this will have gotten back on topic.

By the way SolitaryAcetaminophen, (((((((((hugs))))))))))

[I MaFiA I]

Dumbass, he was sticking up for you... Kind of.

Ya know, there are some times I agree with you, but others I just want to smack some sense into you.

Anyway, I've got to run. Hopefully when I return this will have gotten back on topic.

By the way SolitaryAcetaminophen, (((((((((hugs))))))))))

Funny, you call me a dumbass, yet LT knows damn well I knew he was agreeing with me. As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone who has been keeping up with this thread knew I knew he was. I was just typing as if I were hotfox disagreeing with him, because it's obvious logic and reason isn't her strongsuit.

Seems idiocy runs in the fallopian tubes. I should know; I have them.

[Blexican]

Funny, you call me a dumbass, yet LT knows damn well I knew he was agreeing with me. As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone who has been keeping up with this thread knew I knew he was. I was just typing as if I were hotfox disagreeing with him, because it's obvious logic and reason isn't her strongsuit.

Seems idiocy runs in the fallopian tubes. I should know; I have them.

your good at digging holes.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

Funny, you call me a dumbass, yet LT knows damn well I knew he was agreeing with me. As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone who has been keeping up with this thread knew I knew he was. I was just typing as if I were hotfox disagreeing with him, because it's obvious logic and reason isn't her strongsuit.

Seems idiocy runs in the fallopian tubes. I should know; I have them.

wait where do you go to school again?

[I MaFiA I]

And im not Socrates so I dont have his thoughts.

I lol'd.

[Blexican]

He went to school?

[I MaFiA I]

wait where do you go to school again?

Let me guess, you go to Yale or some other prestigious school? Good thing prestige of a school directly correlates to your intelligence, yay!

I'm still in highschool, so by your logic I guess I'm stupid/naive/stubborn?

[shurtugal]

Good god Mafia.

You wonder why we hate you? This is why.

Before you would flame everybody possible, making extremly unintelligent posts.
This continued on for several months. Then you posted that job thread, and started acting more mature for around, I don;t know. A day?!
We offered you advice, and one or two people flamed you. All that you had to do was ignore it. But a week later it's everybody v.s. you again.

Go back to posting smart and not flaming every possible chance, I was like you, I grew up.

Also, these assumptions you make...... wow.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

Let me guess, you go to Yale or some other prestigious school? Good thing prestige of a school directly correlates to your intelligence, yay!

I'm still in highschool, so by your logic I guess I'm stupid/naive/stubborn?

well almost everyone goes through high school so I guess you must be calling yourself stupid/naive/stubborn because that wasn't what I was thinking at all

[I MaFiA I]

Good god Mafia.

You wonder why we hate you? This is why.

Before you would flame everybody possible, making extremly unintelligent posts.
This continued on for several months. Then you posted that job thread, and started acting more mature for around, I don;t know. A day?!
We offered you advice, and one or two people flamed you. All that you had to do was ignore it. But a week later it's everybody v.s. you again.

Go back to posting smart and not flaming every possible chance, I was like you, I grew up.

Also, these assumptions you make...... wow.

My conversation with hotfox was going fine. When she began to not open her eyes and just say "i r ritez" I gave up the argument without bashing her. Then douchebags come in the thread and go "molly ftw molly is rite lulz even tho she said 3+2=498 she is still rite cause she is molly ftw omg lawlz!?" Thats when I got pissed because her defense to my posts were like a child trying to deflect a bullet with his/her face.

So seriously, before you try to just jump on the "I H8 MaFiA" bandwagon, at least fucking try to understand what is going on. Being idiotic won't make me leave, it will just force me to stoop down to the maturity level and "type like dis lulz."

[I MaFiA I]

well almost everyone goes through high school so I guess you must be calling yourself stupid/naive/stubborn because that wasn't what I was thinking at all

So explain to me why the location of my school is relevant.

[Matt 34.5]

1. 2 wrongs can make a right, but most often don't. Its not a math equation. If I'm moving and accidentaly pack all my CDs into my DVD box and all my DVDs into my CD box, then its 2 wrongs which resolve the problem because its all packed away anyways. On the other hand if the dvd cases didn't fit into the CD box then the two wrongs wouldn't resolve eachother.

2. Mafia's earlier post about a lot of people doing things not making it the right thing to do was right on the money, and a good response to Angelic's post, but after that one you both got stupid not willing to give up the disagreement and/or accept the difference in opinion or take the time to understand the apposing position. And mafia, pretending to be stupid because you got frustrated... Just when your posts were starting to be worth reading.

3. @RG; I think what you should do is entirely dependant on what leads your morals, be it a strict logic, going with the croud, or religion. If we knew that much you could probably get one good answer.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

My conversation with hotfox was going fine. When she began to not open her eyes and just say "i r ritez" I gave up the argument without bashing her. Then douchebags come in the thread and go "molly ftw molly is rite lulz even tho she said 3+2=498 she is still rite cause she is molly ftw omg lawlz!?" Thats when I got pissed because her defense to my posts were like a child trying to deflect a bullet with his/her face.

So seriously, before you try to just jump on the "I H8 MaFiA" bandwagon, at least fucking try to understand what is going on. Being idiotic won't make me leave, it will just force me to stoop down to the maturity level and "type like dis lulz."

never once did I claim "I was right" I was stating my opinion because that is what forums are for. You are just too hotheaded right now to see it. I was arguing with you but never once did I say "omg im right", in fact youre the one that said "i win". so really stop jumping to conclusions because I wasn't being rude until you started your nonsense bashing. im just stating what I think is right and my opinion, if you don't want to read it then dont read it. honestly get over it. plus you've been being an idiot on more than just this thread.

[Blexican]

never once did I claim "I was right" I was stating my opinion because that is what forums are for. You are just too hotheaded right now to see it. I was arguing with you but never once did I say "omg im right", in fact youre the one that said "i win". so really stop jumping to conclusions because I wasn't being rude until you started your nonsense bashing. im just stating what I think is right and my opinion, if you don't want to read it then dont read it. honestly get over it. plus you've been being an idiot on more than just this thread.

usually when you state your opinion you think its right. :p

[Angelic-Hotfox]

usually when you state your opinion you think its right. :p

lol yes but if someone gave me a concrete counter argument and had enough legitimate points even my thick head could be swayed :]
its just that Mafia hasn't given that to me

[uniquinous]

I'm still in highschool, so by your logic I guess I'm stupid/naive/stubborn?no, we believe you are those things for different reasons...

[I MaFiA I]

1. 2 wrongs can make a right, but most often don't. Its not a math equation. If I'm moving and accidentaly pack all my CDs into my DVD box and all my DVDs into my CD box, then its 2 wrongs which resolve the problem because its all packed away anyways. On the other hand if the dvd cases didn't fit into the CD box then the two wrongs wouldn't resolve eachother.

2. Mafia's earlier post about a lot of people doing things not making it the right thing to do was right on the money, and a good response to Angelic's post, but after that one you both got stupid not willing to give up the disagreement and/or accept the difference in opinion or take the time to understand the apposing position. And mafia, pretending to be stupid because you got frustrated... Just when your posts were starting to be worth reading.

3. @RG; I think what you should do is entirely dependant on what leads your morals, be it a strict logic, going with the croud, or religion. If we knew that much you could probably get one good answer.

To be honest, if this forum only consisted of people like Medemia, Jeff, Northwind, you, Hugh, and maybe a few others then maybe I wouldn't have to show my ass and be a dick, and maybe we can all hold intelligent discussions about various topics. However, you have the people like the ones I mentioned above who get angry at me for posting immature bullshit, but at the same time there is some cock who is constantly bashing me no matter how right or intelligent my posts can be. The only person who has ever sat back, analyzed the entire situation, and has been fair on their opinion of me was Medemia. Everyone else either is ashamed of my behavior or just cripples my growth process my egging me on to act like a tard. I know exactly what they are doing and yet I fall into the trap every time, so I guess that falls on my immaturity as well.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

So explain to me why the location of my school is relevant.

its just that you are so immature that I thought you were still in middle school or something so I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a little kid cry

[Lonely Tylenol]

I know I love shenannigans as much as the next guy but...don't wrongs(negatives) multiply and escalate the situation in life? Kinda like a karma idea. Your actions envoke a multiple of other reactions so why wouldn't your mutiply your wrongs?

Time for my analogy.

Say you kill someone, but because someone killed your friend. Revenge. Karma.

So you take a (-) action(your friend being murdered) and you go to take revenge by murdering the murderer ending up in a negative action. This escalates the situation to a positive note for you but at the same time it causes multiple other situations. The murderers friends would be after you, so more negative reactions. Guilt after the fact would make another negative factor.

You multiply or you can add.

/un-do shenannigans.

The wrongs do multiply in this sense, but they don't multiply against each other. For instance, you could say two wrongs is twice the amount as is in the first wrong, but this produces twice the negative results, so there is proportionality.

Your logic is horrid and your math worsens. Allow me to correct it for you.

From a simple numbers standpoint, what you're stating is equivalent to (from a multiples standpoint):

(-x)²

Where the negative continues to multiply onto itself as a negative, thus producing positive and negative results respective to how many wrongs committed (where every odd number produces a negative result, and every even number produces a negative). With this in mind I'll probably live a pretty good life as long as I remember to commit an even number of crimes, because they'll cancel each other out and even produce a positive equal to the product of the total of negatives. So if I steal $10,000 and then kill a cop during my escape, I'm probably entitled to his belongings, or declared a champion for killing the cop or something equally absurd.

From a strict multiples standpoint, using your equation, it should look more like this:

-(x²)

Where the number of actions (still represented as x) continue to multiply onto themselves, however, the actual presence of a negative is left out of this multiplying process; instead, as the effects of the multiplication continue to change, the presence of the negative remains constant (since it's outside the equation itself). So if I steal $10,000 and then kill a cop during my escape, I'll be tried for both crimes and probably sentenced to death myself. Additionally, they probably won't let me keep or spend any of the money.

Of course, both of these are improper representations of the situation mathematically, if we're talking about two wrongs producing an equivalent sum or result, since if x were to equal, say, any whole number greater than two, the effects would be disproportionately large (4 squared equals 16, not 8); if x were to equal one, no amount of wrongs committed would increase the effects (1 squared equals 1, not 2); if x equals zero, well... Yuh.

Granted, this makes sense from a societal standpoint, as it would produce both the sum of the negative actions from a pragmatic standpoint as well as added measures taken to punish the wrongdoer(s), which produces a net negative greater than the sum of its parts, probably proportional to the number of wrongs squared, cubed, etc. (From a numbers standpoint.)

So a more accurate representation, in regards to multiples, would look like this:

-x * y = z

Where x equals the action done (and is variable and inconstant), y is the number of wrongs done, and z is the end result. As we can see, x is in this case negative.

The way this simple equation is written means, in simple terms (you've demonstrated little ability to comprehend anything greater), you will produce a negative equal to the wrong committed times the number of wrongs committed. This is roughly equivalent to my first equation,
(-) + (-) = (-),

Only written in multiples, since you seem to be so fond of multiples, in spite of the fact that they have no logical bearing on the situation here. I suppose I'll repeat here in bold for you to properly understand: Wrongs don't multiply against themselves in these equations; instead they multiply against the number of wrongs committed, so the result is proportional.

The funny thing is that this works both ways--if you remove the negative before the x, you are left with an equation that measures the right actions done against the number of right actions committed to produce a positive result. Certainly you should be able to believe in numbers, even if you can't demonstrate a satisfactory knowledge of how they work.

Now for your absolutely absurd logic:

So you take a (-) action(your friend being murdered) and you go to take revenge by murdering the murderer ending up in a negative action. This escalates the situation to a positive note for you but at the same time it causes multiple other situations. The murderers friends would be after you, so more negative reactions. Guilt after the fact would make another negative factor.

Wrong on all counts. Your first wrong, I suppose, would be to assume that the revenge killing produces a positive; the net loss here is two lives, not a positive gain in lives. Since the number of lives lost is the only real measure of the net gains and losses, we should be able to fairly easily conclude that the net total is: Loss of life * 2 = 2 lives lost.

Where is the positive?

The second wrong would be to assume the value of life against the value of revenge, though I suppose it would be a net positive for you if the satisfaction you produced from killing someone was greater in value than the life of your friend, in which case, you're a sick fuck and I hope you find jail particularly unpleasant. Also assumes that no other factors come into play, which takes us to your third wrong.

But first, a side note: Numbers are impartial in my calculations on the first point; I'm factoring the net loss overall, whereas you're simply talking about the net gains and losses for you, in which case the values represented in the life of the friend and the life of his killer are skewed, but ultimately the premise remains the same.

Third point, all the factors that are left out when determining the nature of the kill. First off, you murdered, sick fux, to JAILZ with you. That's a hefty net negative--in fact, for a revenge killing, you may even lose your own life, if not to the courts, then to his friends (see: gang wars)! Not to mention all the guilt suffered from your kill, and I can't imagine the psychological trauma suffered from your friend's death is undone by your revenge killing! All negatives!

Where is the positive in this!?

If you believe these actions still produce a positive, refer again to the gang wars. How many people have to kill each other in revenge for a net gain overall to be reached? Two? Six? A hundred? Do they just wipe everyone out until nobody involved is left? To quote Mahatma Gandhi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!

Shenannigans not undone! Not by a long shot! Take an ethics course, a logic course and an algebra course and see me in the morning!

Angelic: You're next!

[Blexican]

To be honest, if this forum only consisted of people like Medemia, Jeff, Northwind, you, Hugh

If it was like this it would be a senior citizen forum.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

lol just tell me im wrong and keep it short, if its as long as Sano's response I wont have the patience to read it :p

[uniquinous]

Everyone else either is ashamed of my behavior or just cripples my growth process my egging me on to act like a tard.
oh it's everyone else's fault, eh?

They just drop the soap and you just happen to pick it up every time?

[I MaFiA I]

never once did I claim "I was right" I was stating my opinion because that is what forums are for. You are just too hotheaded right now to see it. I was arguing with you but never once did I say "omg im right", in fact youre the one that said "i win". so really stop jumping to conclusions because I wasn't being rude until you started your nonsense bashing. im just stating what I think is right and my opinion, if you don't want to read it then dont read it. honestly get over it. plus you've been being an idiot on more than just this thread.

I do apologize for insulting you. Seriously. It was wrong and you weren't the person that pissed me off, it was the masters of fellatio that were making me mad, and you just happened to be in my line of fire when I got annoyed. I do apologize though and oddly enough, it is a sincere one.

However, the reason I gave up on the argument is because you took the saying I gave literally. I can understand why you would do that at first, but when I told you not to and I gave you reasons why it should be taken out of context you refused to and continued to counter my argument with "good and bad is just ur opinions!!!", which is basically taken the saying literal. That is why I gave up. I didn't stop because I felt I was wrong, I gave up because you weren't comprehending my post adequately.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

I do apologize for insulting you. Seriously. It was wrong and you weren't the person that pissed me off, it was the masters of fellatio that were making me mad, and you just happened to be in my line of fire when I got annoyed. I do apologize though and oddly enough, it is a sincere one.

However, the reason I gave up on the argument is because you took the saying I gave literally. I can understand why you would do that at first, but when I told you not to and I gave you reasons why it should be taken out of context you refused to and continued to counter my argument with "good and bad is just ur opinions!!!", which is basically taken the saying literal. That is why I gave up. I didn't stop because I felt I was wrong, I gave up because you weren't comprehending my post adequately.

ok thanks I just got kind of mad after that fallopian tube comment

[Memory of Light]

omg, so much spam about some n00b no one should be giving a shit about...

dont pay. you didnt kill the cop.

i forget who but someone said something like, if you could get away with it without him dying and you would, then you should do it now.

[I MaFiA I]

oh it's everyone else's fault, eh?

They just drop the soap and you just happen to pick it up every time?

Actually, no. Not everytime. Actually only a quarter of the time, at most. Do you not see how much these TAO nerds hate me and bash me every post I make? I guarantee you I would have a lot more posts than I do if replied to every dork trying to get a rise out of me.

Also, what is with you and this assuming shit? Seriously, your slowly starting to drift away from the "ashamed of me" group and starting to fall into the "lords of thy fellatio" category. You are purposely assuming shit that I did not clearly state without asking in a normal manner. You also put witty insults in your posts to piss me off even more. I highly doubt you care whether you are pissing me off- as a matter of fact I wouldn't put it past you to be TRYING to piss me off, but don't try to put on a charade as if you actually want me to be better if you don't.

[*Sanosuke*]

The wrongs do multiply in this sense, but they don't multiply against each other. For instance, you could say two wrongs is twice the amount as is in the first wrong, but this produces twice the negative results, so there is proportionality.

Your logic is horrid and your math worsens. Allow me to correct it for you.

From a simple numbers standpoint, what you're stating is equivalent to (from a multiples standpoint):

(-x)²

Where the negative continues to multiply onto itself as a negative, thus producing positive and negative results respective to how many wrongs committed (where every odd number produces a negative result, and every even number produces a negative). With this in mind I'll probably live a pretty good life as long as I remember to commit an even number of crimes, because they'll cancel each other out and even produce a positive equal to the product of the total of negatives. So if I steal $10,000 and then kill a cop during my escape, I'm probably entitled to his belongings, or declared a champion for killing the cop or something equally absurd.

From a strict multiples standpoint, using your equation, it should look more like this:

-(x²)

Where the number of actions (still represented as x) continue to multiply onto themselves, however, the actual presence of a negative is left out of this multiplying process; instead, as the effects of the multiplication continue to change, the presence of the negative remains constant (since it's outside the equation itself). So if I steal $10,000 and then kill a cop during my escape, I'll be tried for both crimes and probably sentenced to death myself. Additionally, they probably won't let me keep or spend any of the money.

Of course, both of these are improper representations of the situation mathematically, if we're talking about two wrongs producing an equivalent sum or result, since if x were to equal, say, any whole number greater than two, the effects would be disproportionately large (4 squared equals 16, not 8); if x were to equal one, no amount of wrongs committed would increase the effects (1 squared equals 1, not 2); if x equals zero, well... Yuh.

Granted, this makes sense from a societal standpoint, as it would produce both the sum of the negative actions from a pragmatic standpoint as well as added measures taken to punish the wrongdoer(s), which produces a net negative greater than the sum of its parts, probably proportional to the number of wrongs squared, cubed, etc. (From a numbers standpoint.)

So a more accurate representation, in regards to multiples, would look like this:

-x * y = z

Where x equals the action done (and is variable and inconstant), y is the number of wrongs done, and z is the end result. As we can see, x is in this case negative.

The way this simple equation is written means, in simple terms (you've demonstrated little ability to comprehend anything greater), you will produce a negative equal to the wrong committed times the number of wrongs committed. This is roughly equivalent to my first equation,
(-) + (-) = (-),

Only written in multiples, since you seem to be so fond of multiples, in spite of the fact that they have no logical bearing on the situation here. I suppose I'll repeat here in bold for you to properly understand: Wrongs don't multiply against themselves in these equations; instead they multiply against the number of wrongs committed, so the result is proportional.

The funny thing is that this works both ways--if you remove the negative before the x, you are left with an equation that measures the right actions done against the number of right actions committed to produce a positive result. Certainly you should be able to believe in numbers, even if you can't demonstrate a satisfactory knowledge of how they work.

Now for your absolutely absurd logic:



Wrong on all counts. Your first wrong, I suppose, would be to assume that the revenge killing produces a positive; the net loss here is two lives, not a positive gain in lives. Since the number of lives lost is the only real measure of the net gains and losses, we should be able to fairly easily conclude that the net total is: Loss of life * 2 = 2 lives lost.

Where is the positive?

The second wrong would be to assume the value of life against the value of revenge, though I suppose it would be a net positive for you if the satisfaction you produced from killing someone was greater in value than the life of your friend, in which case, you're a sick fuck and I hope you find jail particularly unpleasant. Also assumes that no other factors come into play, which takes us to your third wrong.

But first, a side note: Numbers are impartial in my calculations on the first point; I'm factoring the net loss overall, whereas you're simply talking about the net gains and losses for you, in which case the values represented in the life of the friend and the life of his killer are skewed, but ultimately the premise remains the same.

Third point, all the factors that are left out when determining the nature of the kill. First off, you murdered, sick fux, to JAILZ with you. That's a hefty net negative--in fact, for a revenge killing, you may even lose your own life, if not to the courts, then to his friends (see: gang wars)! Not to mention all the guilt suffered from your kill, and I can't imagine the psychological trauma suffered from your friend's death is undone by your revenge killing! All negatives!

Where is the positive in this!?

If you believe these actions still produce a positive, refer again to the gang wars. How many people have to kill each other in revenge for a net gain overall to be reached? Two? Six? A hundred? Do they just wipe everyone out until nobody involved is left? To quote Mahatma Gandhi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!

Shenannigans not undone! Not by a long shot! Take an ethics course, a logic course and an algebra course and see me in the morning!

Angelic: You're next!

I've done my math classes but ethics and logic are my fail/shenannigan point.

Sorry for ever doubting your logix LT! <3

EDIT: The Gang wars. IF they wiped everyone out then there would be no positive or negative. No number period because 0 is a non exsistant figure. HAH!

[I MaFiA I]

If it was like this it would be a senior citizen forum.

Good, I'd take wisdom and character growth over dumbass ignorance (myself included) anyday.

[Matt 34.5]

I do apologize for insulting you. Seriously. It was wrong and you weren't the person that pissed me off, it was the masters of fellatio that were making me mad, and you just happened to be in my line of fire when I got annoyed. I do apologize though and oddly enough, it is a sincere one.

However, the reason I gave up on the argument is because you took the saying I gave literally. I can understand why you would do that at first, but when I told you not to and I gave you reasons why it should be taken out of context you refused to and continued to counter my argument with "good and bad is just ur opinions!!!", which is basically taken the saying literal. That is why I gave up. I didn't stop because I felt I was wrong, I gave up because you weren't comprehending my post adequately.

I could count the number of people on this forum with one hand that would actualy apologise like that, its not exactly what I thoguht was going on, but if you say it is I'll assume you're right. /imaginary rep, but this doesn't mean that I like you. ;)


EDIT: The Gang wars. IF they wiped everyone out then there would be no positive or negative. No number period because 0 is a non exsistant figure. HAH!

Only if you see it as a bunch of dead gang members as opposed to a bunch of people with family and friends who will be crying and morning their loss...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ignorance is bliss is just a saying to convey my message though I do not believe it applies with everything. And im not Socrates so I dont have his thoughts.

It doesn't apply with anything unless you consider bliss as the basest of recognizable values and thus meaningful to anything. You could say a pig is blissful because he is ignorant, but that doesn't change the fact that he's wallowing in muck and will most likely be slaughtered and served for consumption. If we are to produce in our hearts and minds anything of intrinsic value, regardless of our lot in life, we must do all we can to break down ignorance.

Just because you aren't Socrates doesn't make his insights any less valid. In fact, they may be even more relevant because of it.

I do agree that god or a higher divine power gives us the right or free will to choose between right and wrong and those whom do choose wrong will be punished but understand that with the dilema here, the distinction between and right and wrong is not clearly justified.

First, I don't agree to the presence of a higher power. I was simply stating that your reasoning was absurd even if you assume a higher power as axiomatic truth (see: Faith).

But even with this in mind, the rights and wrongs are clearly defined: In this case they're called laws. The 55mph speed limit was posted, established and recognized, before the fact, but was ignored; in this sense RG broke a law that was known both to him and to the officer. The logical thing to do, be it in numbers/logically quantifiable statements, sociological observations, or any religion known to man on this Earth, would be to atone or compensate for the wrong committed so as to balance out the wrong done, since he himself has admitted to violating an established norm.

While this norm itself may seem absurd to some, it's important to note that 55mph is the highest established speed one can travel without hydroplaning in wet environments; also, as one's speed increases, the amount of time & distance one travels while trying to perform an emergency stop increases exponentially. What if someone were to pull into this road RG was travelling on, unaware that he was travelling towards them at 74mph? He runs a very real risk of an accident much more serious than a speeding ticket ever could be. So not only was the norm properly established and understood before RG was caught violating it, but violating that norm had repercussions that were probably understood by both parties at least to some extent, and couldn't be ignored. (Hence the presence of a speed limit to deter violators in the first place.)

The fact that he was speeding makes it a wrong and his punishment was the ticket but everyone speeds (and im sure you have) and though it is against the law and it is constituted as wrong, RG did say the road he was on sets speed traps and changes the speed limit suddenly as a way of generating revenue, so is his speeding a wrong or was it a mistake he committed due to a simple misunderstanding, which brings us back to the distinction between right and wrong and whether or not if he deserved the ticket in the first place.

Everyone speeding does not make speeding right. In fact, it's the presence of multiple speeders that often results in multiple-car pileups, that result in several unnecessary and untimely deaths. This goes back to the "two wrongs" argument that you have already willfully chosen to ignore (not refute), so I'll leave it at that.

Speed traps are unfortunate and ultimately very stupid; we have them all over the island here actually, and they move between different locations at different times. But ultimately they're there to enforce a speed limit that people should be following already, yes? So their actions are a positive reacting against an existing negative.

The speed limits are also posted everywhere. Every time the speed limit changes, there is a sign for it; hell, even when the speed limit remains constant, the signs are put up periodically to remind people of the speed limit. If RG wasn't aware of the speed limit, he was committing still another traffic violation by not making himself aware of the signs, so there is nothing to be argued here. Whether or not he deserved the ticket is a non-factor, since every single fact presented in this case has made RG's guiltiness in the case abundantly clear (including his open admission to the fact).

The wrong is established. The question is whether RG wants to try and capitalize on the first wrong by committing a second, which he shouldn't do under any circumstances.



Dumbass, he was sticking up for you... Kind of.

Ya know, there are some times I agree with you, but others I just want to smack some sense into you.

Anyway, I've got to run. Hopefully when I return this will have gotten back on topic.

By the way SolitaryAcetaminophen, (((((((((hugs))))))))))

Catra, my dear, I knew he was joking. As was I. ;)

Mafia, the fallopian tubes comment was totally uncalled for, especially with a simple misunderstanding like this one (and a well-intentioned one to boot), and I would love it if you apologized to Catra and the other ladies here for it.

Aside from that, though,

EPIC TROLL IS EPIC

I can't believe you guys are still caught up in this useless game of cat-and-mouse with Mafia. Or maybe you just don't realize that you're the mouse?

Nothing you say to Mafia is going to affect him the way it's affecting you, so you're really the ones that are getting baited, or even "owned", here. Cut your losses and get back to the topic, please! ;)

Superman, AWAYYYY!

http://www.mts.net/~mrodents/Superman%20YH1474M1mural.JPG

[I MaFiA I]

long post much?]

2 apologies in one day? No thanks.

[Angelic-Hotfox]

I told you to keep it short!

[Lonely Tylenol]

2 apologies in one day? No thanks.

Say you're sorry to the nice lady or I'll shoot this dog.

http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/Shoot%20the%20Dog.jpg

[I MaFiA I]

lol.

[Lonely Tylenol]

lol.

I'll do it, man! I'm clearly unstable!

Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge!

[I MaFiA I]

What can I say, It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from going under...

[Lonely Tylenol]

What can I say, It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from going under...

What?

No apology?

That's it!

http://www.usbcha.com/gallery/DogGost450.jpg

The horrible deed is done!

http://www.warrenncgop.com/Shoot_the_dog.jpg

This dog is next! Apologize or he's dead!

[I MaFiA I]

Did they ever find Kurtis Blow's body?

[uniquinous]

don't try to put on a charade as if you actually want me to be better if you don't.that's funny - I can say the same to you. ;)

[I MaFiA I]

that's funny - I can say the same to you. ;)

kay.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Argh!

http://snapshot.parade.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=815342&g2_serialNumber=5

There! Two dogs DEAD, because you wouldn't apologize about an internet comment!

I hope you're happy! I'm out of dogs now and have to move on to fluffy kittens!

http://jeremylott.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/kitten%20and%20gun.jpg

Don't make me do it, man! DON'T MAKE ME DO IT!

[I MaFiA I]

Argh!

http://snapshot.parade.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=815342&g2_serialNumber=5

There! Two dogs DEAD, because you wouldn't apologize about an internet comment!

I hope you're happy! I'm out of dogs now and have to move on to fluffy kittens!

http://jeremylott.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/kitten%20and%20gun.jpg

Don't make me do it, man! DON'T MAKE ME DO IT!

omg I'll give you pos rep dont do it nooooo

[Lonely Tylenol]

omg I'll give you pos rep dont do it nooooo

Too late!



AAAAAUGH!

The cute little kitten can has become DEMON KATS!

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i4/skyfallsthunder/evil_kitten_png.jpg

NOOOOOOOO!

http://www.nataliedee.com/061407/attack-kitten.jpg

I now have no choice but to TAKE MY OWN LIFE to avoid the unspeakable horrors of HELLCAT!

http://www.webstockpro.com/Thumbnails/Stock4B/x4ga3-187.JPG

GOOD-BYE, CRUEL WORLD!!!










But seriously, apologize to Catra and the other ladies. Now.

[shurtugal]

Do a flip.

[I MaFiA I]

Know.

[Matt 34.5]

Lts the master of random image story telling.

But can't you kill something other than dogs? Not cool man.

[Sinyra]

yes, no more dogs. baby seals are so much better. plus, they have the added bonus of coming with a preferred death weapon: the club.

[Catra]

Catra, my dear, I knew he was joking. As was I. ;)

Mafia, the fallopian tubes comment was totally uncalled for, especially with a simple misunderstanding like this one (and a well-intentioned one to boot), and I would love it if you apologized to Catra and the other ladies here for it.



My bad... :fool::blush2:

Uh, I was distracted.

Anyways... Moving on... Wow. Insight into Mafia. For your information Mafia, I had the dreaded 'you must spread rep' comment about twenty times while reading this thread. Yes, I have been keeping up with it.

[Medemia]

I had an interesting comment in my rep box about how something this meaningless can't be considered bad (I know who it is, but I'll withhold the name. It's not about the person, it's about the comment.) I think that's an interesting point. Does something have to be meaningful to make it either right or wrong?
I've heard character defined as what you do when no one else is looking. Just because he can get away with it and just because it probably won't hurt anyone else does not make it any less of a moral dilemma. If it is wrong when people are looking, it's just as wrong when no one is. Magnitude and scope rarely have anything to do with whether something is morally acceptable.

And there shall be no clubbing of baby seals or I shall be forced to use this:
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1351/supersealey1.jpg

[mushroom_girl]

:confused:

Um...for the sake of relevance I would plead Not Guilty if I was you, RG. So would everyone else. There is no cheese inspirational music or applause for taking an obnoxious moral high-ground in the real world.

[uniquinous]

Does something have to be meaningful to make it either right or wrong?Yes.

I've heard character defined as what you do when no one else is looking. Just because he can get away with it and just because it probably won't hurt anyone else does not make it any less of a moral dilemma. If it is wrong when people are looking, it's just as wrong when no one is.true, but whether something is meaningful or not doesn't depend on whether other people know about it.

Let's take jaywalking, for example. If a person crosses in the middle of a quiet suburban street when there are no cars around, it is much different than walking out into a busy city street and causing cars to come to a screeching halt. The action is the same (crossing the street), but it is much more meaningful in the latter case. I doubt anyone's opinion would change if they saw someone cross the middle of the suburban street.

[Medemia]

Just because there is no inspirational music, applause or recognition doesn't make doing the right thing any less right. If you only do the right thing because people are watching, it doesn't show character or integrity, it shows wanting to have a good image. Might as well be a politician :D

Let's take jaywalking, for example. If a person crosses in the middle of a quiet suburban street when there are no cars around, it is much different than walking out into a busy city street and causing cars to come to a screeching halt. The action is the same (crossing the street), but it is much more meaningful in the latter case. I doubt anyone's opinion would change if they saw someone cross the middle of the suburban street.

In both cases, though, a police officer would be justified in giving out a citation because they are both breaking the law. It may not be fair in the first case, but it is still right.

And yes, I jaywalk on non-busy streets...

[R G]

Well I have read through the posts....All good reading, all thought provoking....well most.

I still don't know what I am going to do though.

I go back and forth from the following:

-Just paying the fine and be done with it....this would allow me to just forget what happened and just move on....of course then I would have points on my record that I could do without....this is more of a concern to me than the fine itself. This is kind of the easy route really.

-Go to court like I was planning on doing in the first place and pleading "nolo" this would result in the possibility of lower points....or doing something on the order of what Uniq said.

-Pleading Not Guilty and donating what would have been the fine to a charity in the officers memory....I am sure I could even find the funeral home that is taking care of arrangements, usually the family will specify a favorite charity. I kind of like this as I come out with no points, and something good comes out of what happened maybe to even someone in need. The only person that doesn't make out here is the local government which is kind of criminally taking money on a road that should keep the same speed limit anyway. This would make me question whether I was taking advantage of the situation though.....

Court date is Oct 23.

[Sinyra]

you shouldn't have to plead anything. they will take role in the beginning, and since the officer cannot be there, the case will be dismissed. you won't be asked to plead at all. (this is according to my friend who's a cop here in Oregon.)

thus your moral dilemma is solved. although it's still a situation that feels weird...

[R G]

you shouldn't have to plead anything. they will take role in the beginning, and since the officer cannot be there, the case will be dismissed. you won't be asked to plead at all. (this is according to my friend who's a cop here in Oregon.)

thus your moral dilemma is solved. although it's still a situation that feels weird...


If that is the case then I think I am still going to contribute to some charity in the officers name....hopefully something good can come out of an unfortunate set of circumstances.

[Sinyra]

now that's a good idea. I had a close friend die this summer and there is a scholarship fund in her name the our university. at least her death will help others in some way. and I think she was an organ donor...

[uniquinous]

It may not be fair in the first case, but it is still right.uh... no.

fair, just, and right are inseparable, ideally.

to prove me wrong, you need but cite a single time you, or ANYONE you have ever known has been stopped for jaywalking on an empty suburban street. have fun.

[Lonely Tylenol]

to prove me wrong, you need but cite a single time you, or ANYONE you have ever known has been caught jaywalking on an empty suburban street. have fun.

Fixed.

You make this too easy.

[uniquinous]

it is fixed, but so was the opening argument. something has to be meaningful to be right or wrong. if something is completely meaningless, it's just as fixed. i just gave an example of it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

it is fixed, but so was the opening argument. something has to be meaningful to be right or wrong. if something is completely meaningless, it's just as fixed. i just gave an example of it.

I fear we may both be using different definitions of the word "fixed".

[uniquinous]

oh, my fault then. i thought you meant like, i rigged the counterargument setup, which is true, but because of what i said above

[~SuMpFiN~]

I have a moral dilemma I am facing...

About a month ago I was traveling through some hick-town in Georgia. In this town there is a four lane highway and I was traveling at the speed 74mph. Now this road could easily pass for an interstate, but it's not. The speed limit changes along this road and unfortunatly the local authorities use this as somewhat of a tax generator by having speed traps along the stretches where the speed limits change.

Well I was given a speeding citation for 74mph in a 55mph zone. It's kind of been in the back of my mind as my trial date is not until the end of the month......So I wake up this morning and as usual I watch the news to see what happened while I was asleep. Well ironically the first story I see is a story on a deputy sherriff in Oconee County Georgia that was killed while directing school traffic and they flashed his face up on the screen. I was immediately taken back as I realized that this is the same officer who wrote me a ticket. I hate to hear that the guy passed away as he seemed kind and was courtesy...he was just doing his job, eventhough I know that the road I was traveling on could easily handle 74mph and alot of cars go about that speed.

Later today I think to myself....I could now easily go to court and plead Not Guilty and since the officer can not make an apperance I would get off..... but I know I was most likely going that speed and I would feel guilty of taking advantage of the officers untimely death.

So what would you do?

Plead not guilty then treat yourself to a nice meal with the money you would of had to pay for the fine.

Could you look at yourself and think you did the right thing if you did plead not guilty? And then, could you live with that?


Yes.

[MokoToko]

Two wrongs may not make a right,

but three rights make a left!

kinda of...more like a left left right.... but you get my point.

[I MaFiA I]

...

[R G]

Well today was the day....And here's how it broke down.

Court was 1 1/2 hour drive away. Took my youngest son to school and I am off. Finally get to the courthouse and I am about 5 minutes late...Parking was a beotch....finally just decided to park in a church parking lot and walk a block away....Notice a sign as I am leaving the parking lot, which warns of towing away at owners expense. I think to myself "great", but just keep hussling to the courtroom. Signed in at 9:08 went in and sat down on the second from the back row.

Some guy starts talking to me about how he is going to go to jail today, because his parole officer don't like him....goes on about all of this for drinking a beer...He's annoying and loud.....Then starts talking to some girl about how she better have the money to pay. I decided to get up and move towards the middle.....It's 9:15

The prosecutor goes through all of the legal mumbo-jumbo and we all stand for the judge. The judge sits down. My hands are starting to sweat at this point and I feel butterfly's in my stomach.

The prosecutor first explains the NoLo plea....I can't go that route since I used that about 4 years ago and you can only use it every 5.....so I sit. About a 1/3 of the people are taken care of through that process....There is no mention of dismisal of people in my same situation.....It's now 9:28.

Then they start calling people up as the prosecutor starts making deals....I can't hear so I move up to the front row now....It's 10:16 now Now I can hear what is going on. The prosecutor basically gives everyone the same deal when it came to speeding....that is reduce the speeding violation to where it is below where it would show up on your driving record and a fine of $84 dollars. Of course there were other instances where another officer wrote the ticket or the offense was severly frowned upon....DUI for instance and surprisingly enough No Proof of Insurance which got a fine of $310 every single time....of course if someone had insurance all they had to do was prove it....then no fine.

Most people take the prosecutors deal, that is no points and a small fine. Finally there was one guy who decided to see if he could get off completely. They make it hell on the guy, telling him that to let him off would dishonor the officer who passed. The guy is firm in saying he wants to plead not guilty. The prosecutor says that he will have to come to trial on another date then. The guy is somewhat pissed as now he has to take off work again.....I don't understand this guys train of thought as evidently he has more time than he does money....$84 dollars isn't that much money when you really think about it.....but whatever....It's 10:32 now.

So being that I signed in really late I am one of the last people called upon....It's 11:37 now. The prosecutor offers me the same deal....no points $84 fine... I decided to use Uniq's approach....(Thanks by the way Uniq :)) I tell the prosecutor that I have been really troubled by the turn of events...I explain to him that I was going to plead Not Guilty before the officer passed away due to the circumstances that are irrelevant at this point, but considering the circumstances I don't feel that it is right that I get off for free. I would like to offer my fine to the family. The prosecutor eats it up. Tells me that I am an outstanding citizen and a real stand up guy. He asks me to take a seat again to wait for the time to see the judge.....I wait....I begin to wonder if I will be called before lunch....now my butterflies in my stomach are hungry and they want to eat.....I keep waiting and I am called upon to face the judge...It's 11:55 at this point.

The Prosecutor basically tells the judge what I said and the judge basically had me sign something that said I was guilty....my charge was suspended no fine and I was introduced to a deputy who was a good friend of the cop who passed. He told me that the bank next door had a memorial fund for the Gilstrap Family, so I walked over there and donated $100 and left.

And that is what happened. :)

[shurtugal]

I was expecting there to be a "and my car was gone when I came back".

[R G]

I was expecting there to be a "and my car was gone when I came back".

LOL So was I....But no my vehicle was still there....kind of left you hanging didn't I?

Sorry about that. :)

[The Butcher]

Well done, RG.

Falcor smiles upon you.

[R G]

Well done, RG.

Falcor smiles upon you.

I just hope Falcor's owner is happy.

http://msp10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/darthcolin/falcor-jesus.jpg

[KickAssPlaya]

I was expecting there to be a "and my car was gone when I came back".

lol me too.

and that's good RG, glad it all worked out for you :)

[The Butcher]

I just hope Falcor's owner is happy.

http://msp10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/darthcolin/falcor-jesus.jpg

Dont mix religions, thats blasphemy.

[Smilez]

I'm glad everything turn out good for you, and that your car was still there when you got back.

[uniquinous]

:)

[shurtugal]

:)

You trickster you....

[THUNDER-K9]

Well today was the day....And here's how it broke down.

Court was 1 1/2 hour drive away. Took my youngest son to school and I am off. Finally get to the courthouse and I am about 5 minutes late...Parking was a beotch....finally just decided to park in a church parking lot and walk a block away....Notice a sign as I am leaving the parking lot, which warns of towing away at owners expense. I think to myself "great", but just keep hussling to the courtroom. Signed in at 9:08 went in and sat down on the second from the back row.

Some guy starts talking to me about how he is going to go to jail today, because his parole officer don't like him....goes on about all of this for drinking a beer...He's annoying and loud.....Then starts talking to some girl about how she better have the money to pay. I decided to get up and move towards the middle.....It's 9:15

The prosecutor goes through all of the legal mumbo-jumbo and we all stand for the judge. The judge sits down. My hands are starting to sweat at this point and I feel butterfly's in my stomach.

The prosecutor first explains the NoLo plea....I can't go that route since I used that about 4 years ago and you can only use it every 5.....so I sit. About a 1/3 of the people are taken care of through that process....There is no mention of dismisal of people in my same situation.....It's now 9:28.

Then they start calling people up as the prosecutor starts making deals....I can't hear so I move up to the front row now....It's 10:16 now Now I can hear what is going on. The prosecutor basically gives everyone the same deal when it came to speeding....that is reduce the speeding violation to where it is below where it would show up on your driving record and a fine of $84 dollars. Of course there were other instances where another officer wrote the ticket or the offense was severly frowned upon....DUI for instance and surprisingly enough No Proof of Insurance which got a fine of $310 every single time....of course if someone had insurance all they had to do was prove it....then no fine.

Most people take the prosecutors deal, that is no points and a small fine. Finally there was one guy who decided to see if he could get off completely. They make it hell on the guy, telling him that to let him off would dishonor the officer who passed. The guy is firm in saying he wants to plead not guilty. The prosecutor says that he will have to come to trial on another date then. The guy is somewhat pissed as now he has to take off work again.....I don't understand this guys train of thought as evidently he has more time than he does money....$84 dollars isn't that much money when you really think about it.....but whatever....It's 10:32 now.

So being that I signed in really late I am one of the last people called upon....It's 11:37 now. The prosecutor offers me the same deal....no points $84 fine... I decided to use Uniq's approach....(Thanks by the way Uniq :)) I tell the prosecutor that I have been really troubled by the turn of events...I explain to him that I was going to plead Not Guilty before the officer passed away due to the circumstances that are irrelevant at this point, but considering the circumstances I don't feel that it is right that I get off for free. I would like to offer my fine to the family. The prosecutor eats it up. Tells me that I am an outstanding citizen and a real stand up guy. He asks me to take a seat again to wait for the time to see the judge.....I wait....I begin to wonder if I will be called before lunch....now my butterflies in my stomach are hungry and they want to eat.....I keep waiting and I am called upon to face the judge...It's 11:55 at this point.

The Prosecutor basically tells the judge what I said and the judge basically had me sign something that said I was guilty....my charge was suspended no fine and I was introduced to a deputy who was a good friend of the cop who passed. He told me that the bank next door had a memorial fund for the Gilstrap Family, so I walked over there and donated $100 and left.

And that is what happened. :) Good call bro!

[~SuMpFiN~]

The Prosecutor basically tells the judge what I said and the judge basically had me sign something that said I was guilty....my charge was suspended no fine and I was introduced to a deputy who was a good friend of the cop who passed. He told me that the bank next door had a memorial fund for the Gilstrap Family, so I walked over there and donated $100 and left.

And that is what happened. :)

After seeing the guy in front of you try and get away with not guilty, I would of just taken the $84 option. Or I would or done what you did and only put in $50. But you did a very good thing anyway. Well done to you.

[Liquid Swordsman]

Interesting thread, wish I saw it when it got created. Seems a little too late to try and start it back up again ;D

[Darque]

My fathers a narcotics detective, my uncles an officer, I'm military police and work with many state troopers and such. I wouldn't think any less of you if you plead not guilty. The tragedy here is that the police officer is dead. Also..you may not be completely out of it depending how they do things in Georgia.. I'm not sure if I missed this or what not but usually when being pulled over by the police you have one trooper doing the clocking and another doing the ticketing..often times they'll both show up to court and one may be enough..not quite as fresh on the civilian traffic laws. Regardless, if that police officer was still alive and you plead not guilty I can almost guarantee the charges would be dropped to 5mph over with 0 points and a small fine assuming your record is relatively clean. I'm not really going to make any judgments but when I first got my license my father got me out of two speeding tickets, one 22 over..the other 30 over 0_o, needless to say I drive much slower now :P

Edit: I just read the conclusion RG, nice job =D