Cuba

[Jeffery]

Ok. Can anyone here actually explain why the US has such a hard line against Cuba?
Yes, Cuba is a communist country. As are others we trade with daily.
Yes, Cuba has horrible "human rights" record. As do other countries we deal with daily.

Every single thing that can be claimed against Cuba holds for countless other countries as well.

So can anyone here actually come up with reasonable reasons why the US should continue it's embargo against Cuba?

[The Butcher]

I see what you are doing, Jeffery.

I see.

[Wizzy`]

Is US code for "TAO" and Cuba code for "bdog"?

[Godmic18]

Ok. Can anyone here actually explain why the US has such a hard line against Cuba?
Yes, Cuba is a communist country. As are others we trade with daily.
Yes, Cuba has horrible "human rights" record. As do other countries we deal with daily.

Every single thing that can be claimed against Cuba holds for countless other countries as well.

So can anyone here actually come up with reasonable reasons why the US should continue it's embargo against Cuba?

They would take away our $$ via tourism and cigars?
Mustaches?

[houckeah]

There is a secret transport that flys from the US to Cuba every day. I'm unsure why but I know it exists.

[Godmic18]

There is a secret transport that flys from the US to Cuba every day. I'm unsure why but I know it exists.

Some secret...

[Worker]

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/ngbeyond/images/movie3.jpg

[Trojan]

Cuban Missile Crisis.

USSR was transporting nuclear weapons to Cuba in the early 1960's that could hit the majority of the continental United States. President John F. Kennedy placed an embargo on Cuba to create economic sanctions on the Castro regime. He also deployed the United States Navy to quarintine the country from recieving shipments possibly carrying warheads or the last few pieces. Once Raul Castro starts implimenting respectable reform policies that mark the end of the Fidel Castro regime US sanctions against Cuba will ease up.

[†=THE ONE=†]

The embargo limits American businesses from conducting business with Cuban interests and despite this, the United States is the seventh largest exporter to Cuba. The Communist government claims that the problems in Cuba stem from the embargo, but you know there's always controversy regarding that. I'm sure Mr. Obama will lift the embargo, once Raul Castro is placed into full power, because of all of the positive economic benefits the U.S. could receive. One little fun fact is that Cuba has the largest experiment organic farming in the world and there are 22 billion barrels of offshore oil.

[Omega_Paladin]

We're bros with China, so the communist slot in the crew is filled.

[Worker]

China is our "Bia"

[Jeffery]

Cuban Missile Crisis.

USSR was transporting nuclear weapons to Cuba in the early 1960's that could hit the majority of the continental United States. President John F. Kennedy placed an embargo on Cuba to create economic sanctions on the Castro regime. He also deployed the United States Navy to quarintine the country from recieving shipments possibly carrying warheads or the last few pieces. Once Raul Castro starts implimenting respectable reform policies that mark the end of the Fidel Castro regime US sanctions against Cuba will ease up.

And what does that have to do with policies today. The USSR doesn;t even exist anymore.
Also, Cuba is by far not the worst country the US has relations with. Holding onto petty grudges from 50 years ago is stupid.

The embargo limits American businesses from conducting business with Cuban interests and despite this, the United States is the seventh largest exporter to Cuba. The Communist government claims that the problems in Cuba stem from the embargo, but you know there's always controversy regarding that. I'm sure Mr. Obama will lift the embargo, once Raul Castro is placed into full power, because of all of the positive economic benefits the U.S. could receive. One little fun fact is that Cuba has the largest experiment organic farming in the world and there are 22 billion barrels of offshore oil.

Raul has been officially in charge for some time. This was more than clear when he basically fired most of Fidels old cronies.

[kosjeyr]

i have heard that if we go on vacation there its hard to come back to the U S... is some of that true?

[Trojan]

It's not a grudge.
They had weapons that could kill us.
We stopped them, put conditions saying you need to reform before we can be buddies, all they need to do is reform.

[†=THE ONE=†]

i have heard that if we go on vacation there its hard to come back to the U S... is some of that true?

Technically, its illegal for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba for the most part, but I heard as long as you don't spend more than $100.00 U.S. dollars there a day, you should be relatively safe from being fined thousands of dollars when you return. Be wary though, the Cuban government can and will throw outsiders in jail for any types of rule infringements without a trial.

[The Butcher]

i have heard that if we go on vacation there its hard to come back to the U S... is some of that true?

Tony Montana didn't have much trouble. All he had to do was stab a guy.

[Godmic18]

What if this recession gets so bad that we start trying to make crappy boats and try to flee to Cuba?

[Sinyra]

cigar envy. plain and simple.

[Godmic18]

cigar envy. plain and simple.


See! That's what I said, but no one listened!

[MokoToko]

cigar envy. plain and simple.

bu dum tsh.

I think all the best cigar rollers fled Cuba.

[Sinyra]

See! That's what I said, but no one listened!

tear for godmic. you're one of my fav e-peeps too btw. ;)

bu dum tsh.

I think all the best cigar rollers fled Cuba.

correct. and unfortunately for them, they only made it to the cell in my backyard. black market cigars ftw baby.

[kosjeyr]

Technically, its illegal for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba for the most part, but I heard as long as you don't spend more than $100.00 U.S. dollars there a day, you should be relatively safe from being fined thousands of dollars when you return. Be wary though, the Cuban government can and will throw outsiders in jail for any types of rule infringements without a trial.

If that is the case why do they let us go to Russia [ USSR ( Soviet Union ) whatever it is now]

[Worker]

Vodka.

[kosjeyr]

so our government will let us have russian vodka but not cuban cigars?

[MokoToko]

correct. and unfortunately for them, they only made it to the cell in my backyard. black market cigars ftw baby.

Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode...

mmmm crepes

[Ächilles]

Why?

Well, wouldn't you keep someone cut off from your nation if he knew all your dirty secrets, too?

Castro saw the literal rape and plunder of South America by the United States all through the twentieth century. He was there for the successful U.S. coup of Salvador Allende, a democratically elected leader who committed nothing warranting a coup.

Castro's revolutionary counterpart, Che Guevara, was there when Jacobo Arbenz was forced into exile in 1954 because of the CIA-backed Operation PBSUCCESS . Here is the first peaceful transition of power to ever take place in Guatemala, only to be overthrown by corporate U.S. greed.

Like I said, Castro and Raul have all the dirty little secrets. The United States, in looking after their own self interests, cannot allow contact between the people of this country and two outspoken revolutionaries to be reestablished. And it won't.

[The Butcher]

correct. and unfortunately for them, they only made it to the cell in my backyard. black market cigars ftw baby.

Interesting fact I've just learned about you shan..

[Worker]

You know you're awesome when your nations corporate sector gets more recognition for overthrowing governments than your military.

[Xiahou Dun]

It's not a grudge.
They had weapons that could kill us.
We stopped them, put conditions saying you need to reform before we can be buddies, all they need to do is reform.

Why don't YOU reform?

[Hatchet Klown]

Why?

Well, wouldn't you keep someone cut off from your nation if he knew all your dirty secrets, too?

Castro saw the literal rape and plunder of South America by the United States all through the twentieth century. He was there for the successful U.S. coup of Salvador Allende, a democratically elected leader who committed nothing warranting an coup.

Castro's revolutionary counterpart, Che Guevara, was there when Jacobo Arbenz was forced into exile in 1954 because of the CIA-backed Operation PBSUCCESS . Here is the first peaceful transition of power to ever take place in Guatemala, only to be overthrown by corporate U.S. greed.

Like I said, Castro and Raul have all the dirty little secrets. The United States, in looking after their own self interests, cannot allow contact between the people of this country and two outspoken revolutionaries to be reestablished. And it won't.

Although the missions and much of what you said is true, saying we're keeping the embargo to prevent contact is silly. If Castro wanted to air America's "dirty secrets" he could just put it on Cuban TV and be aired all over the world. If anything he could blackmail us with it to end the embargo.

You stated your opinion as fact and tried to cover it up with using actual facts. Nice job, but when thought about for more than 2 seconds, it just doesn't make sense.

[Ächilles]

Although the missions and much of what you said is true, saying we're keeping the embargo to prevent contact is silly. If Castro wanted to air America's "dirty secrets" he could just put it on Cuban TV and be aired all over the world. If anything he could blackmail us with it to end the embargo.

You stated your opinion as fact and tried to cover it up with using actual facts. Nice job, but when thought about for more than 2 seconds, it just doesn't make sense.

So I make a point, at no point claim it to be empirical, and then provide historical facts to back up my argument, only to be called out on using said sources?

Should I make baseless claims next time instead? I guess I can not provide a basis to my argument?

Well, shows how worth you're arguing with.

:rolleyes:

[Hatchet Klown]

I'm not arguing the historical facts, arguing that you tried to state that the US Government is consipiring to keep Castro or the Cuban government from speaking to US citizens as a fact.

EDIT: We can continue this later, heading out for awhile.

[Ächilles]

I'm not arguing the historical facts, arguing that you tried to state that the US Government is consipiring to keep Castro or the Cuban government from speaking to US citizens as a fact.

EDIT: We can continue this later, heading out for awhile.

I know you're not arguing the facts. I never at any point. said you were.

If you can point out where in my post I claimed that the OPINION I was arguing was factual, please do so. I will wholeheartedly apologize.

Where do you get off? I have my opinion about the embargo, and I stated it. I did so without making any pseudo-empirical claims, and even provided some historical facts to back up my argument. Did I say that all of my post was a universal truth? Nope. At any point did I come straight out an declare that 'this is how it is?' No again.

How is it that when I make an intelligent argument with sources, I get called out on it? What about you, huh? All you've done is more or less say 'you're wrong.' In what way have you contributed to anything going on here other than baselessly disagreeing with what I said?

Don't you find it ironic that you called me out on something I didn't even do (that being you claiming I'm trying to state what I said as fact), yet did that very same thing WHILE calling me out? How is it that when I provide my opinion on the embargo, it's me claiming it as fact, but when you disagree, it's not? Doesn't that imply that you believe you're empirically correct?

Jeez. Silly me for stating my opinion on the matter. I'll make sure to place outrageous, sourceless claims next time instead.

[Jeffery]

Ach, I don;t agree with calling your opinion as a declared fact, but do have question bout it.

How would an economic and travel embargo prevent the free passing of information from one country to another? Up until this year there has ALWAYS been a US newspaper with offices based in Cuba. People have been travelling to and from Cuba the entire time of the embargo. (Just go to Canada and fly to Cuba, and vice-versa)
I don't see how the embargo could be about keeping Cuba from spreading information, as everything you've said has been made in open claims for years.

The reason for the initial embargo was retaliation for Cuba basically kicking the US out. The US was a great trade/tourist partner to Cuba for years. The US actually helped back Castro up ealier on. Then when he got to power, he cut off all ties, seized all US businesses and assets.
Basically Castro said "Thanks for the help, get the hell out."

This was a HUGE slap in the face. When the US tried to retaliate, Cuba simply got what they wanted from the USSR. This was an even bigger slap in the face.


But thats why the embargo was started. We are now 50 years later. Why does it continue is more my question.

[Worker]

Bay of Pigs.

[The AIDS Virus]

B/c Raul and Fidel like it in the pooper, and Americans don't approve of that kinda thing.

[Ächilles]

Ach, I don;t agree with calling your opinion as a declared fact, but do have question bout it.

And I really appreciate that and you respect you for taking that approach. You're disagreeing with my opinion, but recognize it as just that - an opinion. It's there to be disagreed with, and at least you have some basis to doing so.

How would an economic and travel embargo prevent the free passing of information from one country to another? Up until this year there has ALWAYS been a US newspaper with offices based in Cuba. People have been travelling to and from Cuba the entire time of the embargo. (Just go to Canada and fly to Cuba, and vice-versa)
I don't see how the embargo could be about keeping Cuba from spreading information, as everything you've said has been made in open claims for years.

Information's always going to be in circulation, no matter what the circumstance. We're too advanced as a global society to let things like embargos, wars, gag orders, or anything of the like inhibit the transfer of information.

I was speaking more in terms of that information being brought to the present public conscience. Any bloke with an internet connection can find everything I said and more with a simple Google search. It's all there for the reading, I'm not debating that. It's just not prevalent in the minds of Americans.

So while this information is easily at hand, it's my belief that if trade and travel were made completely open between the US and Cuba; if non-corporate news vessels such as DemocracyNOW! and others were able to travel freely to and from Cuba and spoke with all those directly or indirectly involved with the resulting administration of the July 26th Movement, a lot more people would realize how horribly South America has been taken advantage of.

The reason for the initial embargo was retaliation for Cuba basically kicking the US out. The US was a great trade/tourist partner to Cuba for years. The US actually helped back Castro up ealier on. Then when he got to power, he cut off all ties, seized all US businesses and assets.
Basically Castro said "Thanks for the help, get the hell out."

This was a HUGE slap in the face. When the US tried to retaliate, Cuba simply got what they wanted from the USSR. This was an even bigger slap in the face.

Yes, correct. Once the July 26th Movement overthrew Batista, a US-backed leader, Castro severed all ties with the United States. He saw what the US was doing to Chile, Guatemala, etc, and wanted to separate Cuba from America to avoid similar fates.

This obviously didn't fly with the suits in the White House, as this meant there was one less resource to tap into in South America. Once the Reds jumped into the mix, it became personal for the Yanks. Hence the embargo.

But thats why the embargo was started. We are now 50 years later. Why does it continue is more my question.

Like I said, I just honestly believe it all comes down to the White House and CIA covering their tracks. Where everyone else fell, Castro still stands. He saw lots of bad things happen, and I think that regardless of the state of Cuba, until their administration is far beyond the direct lineage of the July 26th Movement, the embargo will stand.

[Worker]

Cold War. Any country we allowed the Soviets to influence was going to be another cuba situation. Cuba's suffering is an example to others, Chavez is the first to speak up since ...correct?

I don't see how you get that Cuba was getting a good deal by working with the Soviets.

[kosjeyr]

okey im gonna speak my mind on this... but.... shouldn't we beable to go to any country we choose?

[Wizzy`]

I'm not arguing the historical facts, arguing that you tried to state that the US Government is consipiring to keep Castro or the Cuban government from speaking to US citizens as a fact.

EDIT: We can continue this later, heading out for awhile.


What ach is saying is a conspiracy theory.
Just cause all the facts are there doesn't make it true. :\ I mean, just in the last 10 years you can see that.

I'm not saying Ach is wrong. Just saying it's a conspiracy theory.

[Xiahou Dun]

okey im gonna speak my mind on this... but.... shouldn't we beable to go to any country we choose?

Traitor!

[kosjeyr]

how... speak.

[The Butcher]

Terrorist!

[kosjeyr]

no ur the one they want!

[pils]

Um, not sure if this has been mentioned already, but uh....
Cuban missle crisis + Fidel Castro...?

[dan7]

I've flown over/around Cuba. Beautiful country. would hate to live there...

[Ächilles]

I've flown over/around Cuba. Beautiful country. would hate to live there...

You'd have some freaking sweet health insurance.

[Kyir]

Because during the Cold War we were like, HEY CASTO, THAT'S NOT COOL.

[kosjeyr]

Ok the government took out Hussain.... They say they do not know where Osama BinLaden is (which i think is crap because they have tapes of him and from him and blame 9-11 on him).... so why dont they have Castro yet?

[Kyir]

Ok the government took out Hussain.... They say they do not know where Osama BinLaden is (which i think is crap because they have tapes of him and from him and blame 9-11 on him).... so why dont they have Castro yet?

I hear tapes equate to knowing the location of the person on the tapes.

Plus, it's not like Cuba has an army or anything, we could probably take over the entire country with some midgets riding dogs.

[kosjeyr]

yah but there supposed to have nukes like russia and korea.

[Jeffery]

yah but there supposed to have nukes like russia and korea.
You're an idiot. You know that, right?

The fact that several Arab news agencies have received tapes from Bin Laden in NO WAY points towards where he would be at. You do realize that he is not stepping into a UPS store and shipping them to the UPS government and showing his ID to do it, right? The tapes are smuggled to several different countries, then given to newspapers and TV stations. There is no way to magically trace where the tape was made at. (no, not even CSI can do it)

Also, Cuba does have an Army. A large well equipped army. That is why the Bay of Pigs invasion failed. It's lso how Castro suppressed his people. If someone gets out of line, the Army simply stamps them out.

And no, Cuba has no nukes. That is what the Cuban Missile Crisis was over. The USSR tried to put some there, and the US threw a HUGE hissy fit to stop it.

[kosjeyr]

"and the US threw a HUGE hissy fit"

nice choice of words

[Kyir]

"and the US threw a HUGE hissy fit"

nice choice of words

I like how you dodge the point.

[Knight~of~Honor]

Ok. Can anyone here actually explain why the US has such a hard line against Cuba?
Yes, Cuba is a communist country. As are others we trade with daily.
Yes, Cuba has horrible "human rights" record. As do other countries we deal with daily.

Every single thing that can be claimed against Cuba holds for countless other countries as well.

So can anyone here actually come up with reasonable reasons why the US should continue it's embargo against Cuba?

Pretty sure our relations with Cuba are going to change in the next few years with Obama in office.

[houckeah]

Pretty sure our relations with Cuba are going to change in the next few years with Obama in office.

Tradition is hard to break. I doubt things such as our relations with Cuba can be changed in a matter of years.

Ok the government took out Hussain.... They say they do not know where Osama BinLaden is (which i think is crap because they have tapes of him and from him and blame 9-11 on him).... so why dont they have Castro yet?

Do you... read... your posts? Curious... what kind of logic... you subscribe to. Although, the word logic might be giving you too much credit.

[houckeah]

Wow. I was very wrong in that last post. It took... a matter of months for relation's with Cuba to change. Anyone see the recent news?

[Ächilles]

Yes, just heard it.

Wonderful, wonderful news. There's no reason to maintain these age old child's games within our foreign relation policies.

I didn't trust Obama initially (I don't trust any politician), but he's starting to look pretty good. It's still way, way too early to judge though.

Otherwise, very happy to hear.

[R G]

You'd have some freaking sweet health insurance.


I take it you mean Health Coverage not Insurance....but if it's so "sweet" then why would the Dictator have doctors fly in from Spain to see him?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238747,00.html

Also do you think having "sweet" health insurance has done a damn thing to help Cuba's economy?

Seriously you got to quit listening to that fat slob Michael Moore.

[Jeffery]

Wow. I was very wrong in that last post. It took... a matter of months for relation's with Cuba to change. Anyone see the recent news?

Yes, just heard it.

Wonderful, wonderful news. There's no reason to maintain these age old child's games within our foreign relation policies.

I didn't trust Obama initially (I don't trust any politician), but he's starting to look pretty good. It's still way, way too early to judge though.

Otherwise, very happy to hear.

Yeah. Removing the limits on travel and money sent is a good start.

Also, they are discussing inviting Cuba back into the Countries of Americas or some stupid thing like that. Basically all the countries of the Americas belong, except they kicked out Cuba 47 years ago because of the US.

I take it you mean Health Coverage not Insurance....but if it's so "sweet" then why would the Dictator have doctors fly in from Spain to see him?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238747,00.html

Also do you think having "sweet" health insurance has done a damn thing to help Cuba's economy?

Seriously you got to quit listening to that fat slob Michael Moore.

RG, you SERIOUSLY need to invest in a sarcasm detector.

[Ächilles]

:rolleyes:

[R G]

RG, you SERIOUSLY need to invest in a sarcasm detector.

Acutally I considered that maybe he was being sarcastic, but then ruled it out when I saw that his proclaimed location was Soviet Amerika...so then I just assumed he was all for comminism/socialism and everything it stood for.

Was I wrong in my assummtions there Achilles?

[bdog1321]

Totally drew Cuba out of the hat today in Global History. We had to randomly pick a country and write a paper about a current problem facing that country. Some of them were really lame, like little countries I've never even heard of. I was lucky I got cuba I guess, there's so much crap wrong with it. In my bibliography, I'll link this page. :P

[R G]

Totally drew Cuba out of the hat today in Global History. We had to randomly pick a country and write a paper about a current problem facing that country. Some of them were really lame, like little countries I've never even heard of. I was lucky I got cuba I guess, there's so much crap wrong with it. In my bibliography, I'll link this page. :P

I had to a project something simular to that in school, but we had to come up with ideas on how to help the country.

My group got Chad....right smack dab in the middle of Africa. Don't know a damn thing about it now, but at the time it had many more women than men and one of it's big resources was uranium. Our solution was to whore the women out to steal secrets of how to build a nuclear bomb and use the uranium to build a bomb.....then we would hold the world at ransom threatning to set off a bomb unless they helped us. We were laughed at like you wouldn't believe, more so because people could not believe we presented such a radical idea...I figured we were screwed, but the teacher just smiled and said nice job. Our group was the only group to get an A+. :D

Seriously today I am a firm believer that Kim Jong of North Korea got our paper and used it.

[bdog1321]

I had to a project something simular to that in school, but we had to come up with ideas on how to help the country.

My group got Chad....right smack dab in the middle of Africa. Don't know a damn thing about it now, but at the time it had many more women than men and one of it's big resources was uranium. Our solution was to whore the women out to steal secrets of how to build a nuclear bomb and use the uranium to build a bomb.....then we would hold the world at ransom threatning to set off a bomb unless they helped us. We were laughed at like you wouldn't believe, more so because people could not believe we presented such a radical idea...I figured we were screwed, but the teacher just smiled and said nice job. Our group was the only group to get an A+. :D

Seriously today I am a firm believer that Kim Jong of North Korea got our paper and used it.

LOL. Good idea, ballsy to actually present, as well. I now believe you are a boy.

[Rubbish]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/world/americas/18prexy.html?_r=1&hp

EDIT:A link to the news of US's relationship with cuba had already been posted. I apologize if It's redundant.

[Ächilles]

Acutally I considered that maybe he was being sarcastic, but then ruled it out when I saw that his proclaimed location was Soviet Amerika...so then I just assumed he was all for comminism/socialism and everything it stood for.

Was I wrong in my assummtions there Achilles?

Yes.

You weren't too cool in dealing with your reaction, either.

My point, anything, was against Michael Moore. In Sicko, he uses the World Health Organization's list of the best health care by country in the world to point out that the United States is #37 on the list.

Later, he glorifies Cuba as better than the United States in terms of health care, yet neglects that on that very same WHO list, Cuba is actually lower than the US.

So chill out, man.

And for the record, I do think that Democratic Socialism is the way to go.