Veteran Strategy Questions

[Mongolian]

Hello there, I'm less then 1 month old here, but I feel I already have a great grasp on the game. Unfortunately, the only way for me to get significantly better is to understand alot of the same scenarios presented in games. I don't want to play 1000x games just to get these answers, so here are some veteran questions I would like answers. I realise alot of the questions/answers are too specific a scenario to ask, but I'm sure others have wondered:
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1. What should be the first things I need to focus and look on when the game begins?

2. Is it ever ok to swap a knight for a pyro/dark mage?

3. The game seems to always favor the offensive player, so what should the best formations look like?

4. Do I need to react to every/any early offensive move made by opponent's knights/assassins?

5. How do you determine at the beggining of the game, what pieces should be attacking vs focusing on your defense?

6. Should picking off my opponent's scout rate high on my focus list (assuming they have demo units)?

7. List some proper attacking sequences. As in, which 2+ set of pieces should attack together. As in, should my attacks generally start off with knights or go for the pyros/dark mages?

8. Is enchantress ever really a valid strategy while my opponent has a scout or anything to nick off my barrier ward?

9. If possable, should I be focusing on an early attack combo with barrier ward?

10. List pieces that are ok to sacrifice for another unit.

11. Is it ever ok to rush in with 1 Knight, just to go pick off an undamage cleric?

12. In early game, should I be focusing on picking off any unit I can, or should I be more focused on killing specific type of units?

[Enjoi]

Hello there, I'm less then 1 month old here, but I feel I already have a great grasp on the game. Unfortunately, the only way for me to get significantly better is to understand alot of the same scenarios presented in games. I don't want to play 1000x games just to get these answers, so here are some veteran questions I would like answers. I realise alot of the questions/answers are too specific a scenario to ask, but I'm sure others have wondered:
--------------------------------------------------
1. What should be the first things I need to focus and look on when the game begins?

2. Is it ever ok to swap a knight for a pyro/dark mage?

3. The game seems to always favor the offensive player, so what should the best formations look like?

4. Do I need to react to every/any early offensive move made by opponent's knights/assassins?

5. How do you determine at the beggining of the game, what pieces should be attacking vs focusing on your defense?

6. Should picking off my opponent's scout rate high on my focus list (assuming they have demo units)?

7. List some proper attacking sequences. As in, which 2+ set of pieces should attack together. As in, should my attacks generally start off with knights or go for the pyros/dark mages?

8. Is enchantress ever really a valid strategy while my opponent has a scout or anything to nick off my barrier ward?

9. If possable, should I be focusing on an early attack combo with barrier ward?

10. List pieces that are ok to sacrifice for another unit.

11. Is it ever ok to rush in with 1 Knight, just to go pick off an undamage cleric?

12. In early game, should I be focusing on picking off any unit I can, or should I be more focused on killing specific type of units?



1. Only if you are sure you can make the kill. Because unless they are stupid your knight is going to die back there. If they can move cleric, heal and/or barrier then it's probably not a smart idea. Enchantress is built for stray units without backup.

2. Usually this isn't a good trade but in some instances it can be. Such as their next turn their witch would burn your cleric or kill another more important piece. In general try not to sacrifice a knight for a mage though, if that is all you are going to be getting out of it.

3. ?

4. What do you mean by react? If you can put a more threatening/meaningful offensive while they try to make theirs they will be forced to focus on your offensive while leaving a couple units useless down near your end of the board.

5. I generally like to attack with a couple knights my scout and the asssassin. This can give you some mages, and enchantress, a knight, lw, bw or some similar combo to defend back at your base.

6. The scout is a higher priority especially if you are using an enchantress. But dont go suicidal chasing after it. If you can damage it enough and force it back into your opponents base then dont worry about it too much.

7. I usually try to focus on the most vulnerable pieces. So this may not mean always mages or always knights. If you are going to flank a knight pick a weak one. Near your witch side or lw.

8. Enchantress is very valid. I always use one. You've just gotta be smart about wait times and heal times and you should be set even with a scout/mages attacking you.

9. Sure if you want. It puts a lot of pressure on people if they lw and you bring your witch up burning some units then barrier it.

10. Sacrificing a scout for a cleric can be good, but again all these kinds of sacrifices are situational. Sometimes a scout would be better spent on the chanty.

11. Look for your opponents weak spots and go from there. Try to figure out how you can take his cleric or scout out with setting some sort of trap while keeping your units relatively safe.

12. Again it depends, when you focus on a unit you dont want to just focus on him for a 1 unit advantage. Also look at how key each different unit is to their formation. It can be difficult to know sometimes but practice will give you a better idea on all these different things.

Hope it helps.

[DOCTOR DEVICE]

Hello there, I'm less then 1 month old here, but I feel I already have a great grasp on the game. Unfortunately, the only way for me to get significantly better is to understand alot of the same scenarios presented in games. I don't want to play 1000x games just to get these answers, so here are some veteran questions I would like answers. I realise alot of the questions/answers are too specific a scenario to ask, but I'm sure others have wondered:
--------------------------------------------------
1. What should be the first things I need to focus and look on when the game begins?

2. Is it ever ok to swap a knight for a pyro/dark mage?

3. The game seems to always favor the offensive player, so what should the best formations look like?

4. Do I need to react to every/any early offensive move made by opponent's knights/assassins?

5. How do you determine at the beggining of the game, what pieces should be attacking vs focusing on your defense?

6. Should picking off my opponent's scout rate high on my focus list (assuming they have demo units)?

7. List some proper attacking sequences. As in, which 2+ set of pieces should attack together. As in, should my attacks generally start off with knights or go for the pyros/dark mages?

8. Is enchantress ever really a valid strategy while my opponent has a scout or anything to nick off my barrier ward?

9. If possable, should I be focusing on an early attack combo with barrier ward?

10. List pieces that are ok to sacrifice for another unit.

11. Is it ever ok to rush in with 1 Knight, just to go pick off an undamage cleric?

12. In early game, should I be focusing on picking off any unit I can, or should I be more focused on killing specific type of units?

1. Don't focus on any unit -- take what you can get. If you can advance your knight 3 spaces on a knight and side hit it -- do it. Early in the grey game focus on your positioning (I will answer these for grey, since that seems your style.) Get good knight pressure and the rest is self-explanatory. What you do NOT want to do early is advance your scout to try and pick off a mage. You will not get it, for no mage can be killed with a scout if the mage-holder heals. Worst for them they barrier and push your scout back. It's a silly way to lose position.

2. If you're playing wardless vrs warded, take any trade you can get. Think about it -- their 3 knights and wards endgqame vrs your 2 pyros, witch, assassin and chanty. I like the seconds odds. I know t his is specific, but live units as oppose to wards are always preferabble. If you're playing wardless vrs wardless, or warded vrs wardless, those are crappy trades. Still, ward vrs ward, I really like knight for witch trade. If you have a BW, a witch is a nice offensive option.

3. I will not answer this on principle.

4. Depends. Mid-game you have an option -- protect your vitals, or go for theirs. Basically, abandon your cleric and take some attack pieces, or protect your cleric for serious positional loss. The worst case, obviously, is choosing to protect your cleric and losing it.

5. Uh. Depends? Idk. Commit -- send your pieces on offense, or send them on defense. There arent enough units or turns to do both at once.

6. Only if it's exposed and only if you have an enchantress.

7. Knight goes up and side hits. Barrier knight, or attack that injured knight with a pyro or witch or something. It's pretty situational.

8. No, it's just wasting a turn unless you can block it off. Think about it -- they damage a unit while improving their scout position. They accomplish two goals in one move while you accomplish 0. Enchantress is a valid strategy only endgame, because, unlike a frost, it can't choose what it freezes, so using it mid-game seriously cripples your offense (freezing your cleric.) It also has different range. I use a chanty sometimes, but in 90% of those games it doesn't get any action. Against a careful player, it's a useless unit.

9. Yes. Witch + barrier is a very valid attack sequence, and it's how I begin most of my grey games where that is an option.

10. Psh. Entirely situational and set dependable. But fine -- knight for two mages is very nice. Knight for scout. Pyro for witch. Witch for knight and knight for witch. Do not sacrifice chanty for scout. Chanty is not nearly as big a threat as you think it is. You lose your entire offense. Knights have blockable range, so you're crippled.

11. Uh, if an opponent lets you kill his cleric for their knight, do it. But... that's not really how it works.

12. You should be focused on positioning. Unit kills will follow.

[xEaglex]

I don't want to play 1000x games just to get these answers, so here are some veteran questions I would like answers.


The only way to REALLY know the answers to these questions is to...play a large amount of games.

Just as with anything, to get good at TAO you have to play in these scenarios to find the answers to them. You can't just have someone tell you how to be good because anyone can follow general rules and guidelines. It is recognizing the exceptions to the rules that make one an exceptional player.

I'll answer a few questions and maybe you'll start to see how elaborate these answers are.

1. You need to look for places to attack your opponent's set. Usually, it's going to be either the right or left side and not the center, so you need to decide which side of his is weaker and which side of yours is stronger. You need to be able to attack him WHILE keeping your units relatively safe at the same time. There's no use attacking if you are just going to get counter-attacked even worse.

You're also usually going to need scout backup so make sure when you start attacking with your knights that your scout is in a position to back them up by finishing off any units that try to run or by sniping his frontline units to start the attack.

Of course, if you are really strong on his weak side or if there is no enchantress to worry about, you might not need the scout. This is one exception.

2. Try not to think of the game as just "swapping units." Keep your goal in mind. Will sacrificing your knight help you break through and kill the rest of his vitals? Are you sacrificing your knight for a mage that is threatening your more important pieces (scout,cleric,enchantress)? You've got to look at the big picture.

3. In an ideal situation where both players play at the same level and have no mistakes, the offensive player will have the advantage because he will control where and when battles happen. But sometimes playing defense is easier than playing offense...and if the offensive player makes a mistake and loses his range to an enchantress...

As a general rule, try to keep some sort of offense going so that your opponent doesn't dictate your moves.

4. Do you want an untouched knight near your units? If the answer is no...


My last tip: Stop calling them demo units. They're not demonstration units, they're real units that even long-time players use in tournament play. Call them grey units since they're the only units grey (free) accounts can use.

[-The Shredder-]

Well, my forum veteran friends have already given you pretty decent answers to your questions, and so I dont need to repeat them.

However, I dont like question number 3... I dont know if im miss interpreting it or you just made an error.

My entire style of grey has always prefered a solid defense to a good offense.

I've never really felt the game "favors" offense. I've seen it as the better defense wins. If you dont let your units die, you can't lose.

Defense = protection of cleric and important units, mobility to your setup, and when attacking being able to keep your guys alive. You have an advantage on defense so us it.

Its your 10 units vs there 3-4 attackers.

There I go again... blabbing on and on...

As eagle stated... You need to go play games to find out the answers to some of these questions.

[lemon_]

You don't need to play 1000 games to get good at grey. If you have a good grasp on strategy, you'll only need to adjust to current tendancies. I'll try to answer few of your questions. I do disagree with plenty of stuff that people wrote above but I don't feel like arguing.

1. What should be the first things I need to focus and look on when the game begins?

Analyze the position. I think about it in a quite simple way: First of all I evaluate statical positioning - wards positioning, cleric&chanty position and similar stuff. Then I evaluate dynamical side. Then I formulate a plan how can I exploit their weaknesses while protecting my own. There are no guidelines. Or actually there are, but they are formulated by players who can't play grey themselves. You do what is the best, and you don't worry about anything else. There's plenty of people who theorycraft various stuff, but just look at their results...

2. Is it ever ok to swap a knight for a pyro/dark mage?

Yes. Piece worth is relative. If the mage is worth more in that position, then you obviously go for it.

3. The game seems to always favor the offensive player, so what should the best formations look like?

The ones that can go on offense succesfully. Not just randomly throwing units at your opponent, thats not offense. Ones that you can actually apply pressure with. Making a good formation is quite hard, and I've seen very few innovative ones.

Also, you'll hear plenty of people saying that defense is better. And it a sense it is true - it's much, much easier to do. Conducting a proper attack in grey is very hard against good player, and if you mess up, you lose. Whereas if you're defending, a mistake will only lead to increased positional inferiority. However if you do want to become the best there is, you'll have to take the offensive as it WILL win. I actually lose majority of my games because I make mistakes in my attacks. I could've avoided most of those losses if I played more defensively and just let my opponents kill themselves. But I'd not have learned anything and be stuck playing random noobies on GL thinking im the greatest player out there.

4. Do I need to react to every/any early offensive move made by opponent's knights/assassins?

If those actually pose any real threat, then you need to. If they dont, you ignore it and continue with your plan whatever that is.

5. How do you determine at the beggining of the game, what pieces should be attacking vs focusing on your defense?

You analyze the position and determine that.

6. Should picking off my opponent's scout rate high on my focus list (assuming they have demo units)?

If you have enchantress, then yes. Without the scout, any kind of attack will fail or at least take too long to be effective.

7. List some proper attacking sequences. As in, which 2+ set of pieces should attack together. As in, should my attacks generally start off with knights or go for the pyros/dark mages?

You analyze the position and determine what should be done.

8. Is enchantress ever really a valid strategy while my opponent has a scout or anything to nick off my barrier ward?

Not sure what you're asking for. Enchantress is best suited to deal with stray units so they can't just wander there and kill your cleric or something. It won't ever hold off a good attack by itself.



Other questions are kinda... meh. You basically have two choices - you can read various advice here (most of which will be wrong) and follow the guidelines. Or you can actually try to understand the strategic side of the game itself. If you follow the guidelines, you'll have to play those 1000 games to get good (not really...).

I did think about this quite a bit. Almost everyone when starting out reads bottle's grey guide and follow it blindly. Plenty of people considered to be top greys just do what he wrote there without any thought. They don't even know that in opp side games most of the time there'll be a better plan than just blind flanking as bottle suggested. Those players don't actually understand this game. They understand the tactical side, because they played SO many games. They know next to nothing about strategical one.

Let me use an example: when I was practicing for one recent tournament, there was a player who wanted to practice with me. He was worshiped around here as pretty much the best grey player to touch the game. So we played a few games, and he was using a set that countered mine pretty much forcing me into complete defence early on. It wasn't enough of advantage to completely break me however and win easily. He still had a decisive advantage, but he actually had to play positionally to exploit his more agressive unit positioning and space advantage. I didn't let him do the obvious tactical stuff, so he had to actually put some thought into it to break me there. And he couldn't. He even went to say that he didn't have any advantage there. He didn't know anything about strategical side of the game, basically. And he's considered to be one of the best greys to touch the game, ironically.

You can end up like him, or you can actually try to understand the game itself, not just memorize and follow a few (wrong) guidelines.

[Mongolian]

Thanks for everyone's responses.

I loathe memorization as part of strategy, but I know it's an element. It's why I stopped playing chess for the most part. The beggining games I've played on TAO have been extremely frustrating. My opponent is bringing down 1-2 pieces and it seems like I'm not responding to them enough or just not compensating enough attention. If a knight just advances 3 squares with no attack, I feel like it almost always should be delt with. Oddly enough, no one seemed to agree with question #4. I guess I just need more playtesting.

I would still prefer to watch vs play games, but this conversation makes me believe that position is extremely vital. Perhaps so much that early damage/loses don't even matter.

I would love to hear more feedback about early position, reacting to an opponent and strategy elements I've probablly missed bringing up. Cheers.

[Enjoi]

I would gladly play some games with you. Shoot me a message sometime and ill play a game. Also, I dont know if you already know this but in this section of the forums there is a Battle Recordings thread and you can watch some good games. Ive put up quite a few as well as many other good players.

Here is one game I played vs. lemon a long time ago.

http://blip.tv/file/1222321

Although Im sure he could kick my butt most of the time :)

[skev21]

I'd recommend watching Lemons videos in his thread entitled game analysis.

[Mongolian]

I've watched all of lemon's games. I learned alot just by watching them. Commentary is appreciated.

[Niamh]

Lemon's games do help to watch. For your own way to play I suggest play a lot of games, as others have said previously.
I used to target mages first but I just target anything that comes near me. (Yea.. I like turtling and such)

[Fearliss]

You don't need to play 1000 games to get good at grey. If you have a good grasp on strategy, you'll only need to adjust to current tendancies. I'll try to answer few of your questions. I do disagree with plenty of stuff that people wrote above but I don't feel like arguing...

And most people still say that there is not a lot of strategical depth to this game. I admit there is not much compared to other strategy games, but still strategy can help you win a game. And it's one of the reasons I want to get casting some games for newer players.

[xEaglex]

Let me use an example: when I was practicing for one recent tournament, there was a player who wanted to practice with me. He was worshiped around here as pretty much the best grey player to touch the game

When did we practice? I don't remember that.




*giggle*

[Gypsy]

Also, you'll hear plenty of people saying that defense is better. And it a sense it is true - it's much, much easier to do. Conducting a proper attack in grey is very hard against good player, and if you mess up, you lose. Whereas if you're defending, a mistake will only lead to increased positional inferiority. However if you do want to become the best there is, you'll have to take the offensive as it WILL win. I actually lose majority of my games because I make mistakes in my attacks. I could've avoided most of those losses if I played more defensively and just let my opponents kill themselves. But I'd not have learned anything and be stuck playing random noobies on GL thinking im the greatest player out there.


Very true. It is easier to win defensively in grey because usually your opponent will make a mistake. To really be good at tao though (especially the gold meta-game with two scouts) you have to learn to play offensively.

The rest of your post is really good too.

"8. Is enchantress ever really a valid strategy while my opponent has a scout or anything to nick off my barrier ward?"

The enchantress is what she is. She is a defensive stopper which makes your opponent better plan their attack, she will force your opponent to carefully aggress their scout, and you can take a shot on it when it is in wait. If anything she is a good distraction.



You analyze the position and determine what should be done.

In other words...L2PLAY.

[|AFO|]

If anything she is a good distraction.

A knight in their base is a better distraction.

[Gypsy]

A knight in their base is a better distraction.
True that.

[Pikachu!]

1. What should be the first things I need to focus and look on when the game begins?

Well. You really should start by looking at the entire field-- their formation's advantages against yours, units of yours being threatened, units of theirs that you can place pressure on, etc.

Personally, I look to see which of my units are under pressure FIRST, if any [which you really should do throughout the game, every move]. That way I reduce the chance of getting caught up thinking about my move, and overlooking a simple vulnerability that can be exploited. From there, I just look to see which units I can pressure, or what I can do to improve my positioning.

After that, it's just a series of mini-plans [I really don't think that many moves ahead anymore, just 1-3]. Make sure that your units won't die needlessly, and that you won't be forced into a bad position.



2. Is it ever ok to swap a knight for a pyro/dark mage?


Entirely dependent on the situation. If they have a DMW pressuring your knight/cleric, of course you should force them to kill the knight. Also, it's a good technique if you're struggling to set up positionally-- allowing them to kill/pressure a knight [it'll take a few turns] while you attack their mages and advance your own knights into their formation.



3. The game seems to always favor the offensive player, so what should the best formations look like?

Having the offensive advantage is exactly that-- an advantage. Still, your offensive is no good if they can attack you just as fast as you attack them-- and their vitals are more protected. Usually you should have a form that has the vital units [cleric, mages, enchantress] protected [or at the least, not ridiculously exposed], while it also has the ability to attack.



4. Do I need to react to every/any early offensive move made by opponent's knights/assassins?

If it threatens any of your vital units, yes. However, reacting doesn't mean jumping to defend against it. You can usually find a way to advance your own units while dealing with their offensive, or to make them protect their OWN units.



5. How do you determine at the beggining of the game, what pieces should be attacking vs focusing on your defense?


Whichever are vulnerable. No formation starts out with every single unit guarded, and you should be able to see a way to either reduce their pressure on you, or start placing pressure on them. No set strategy will work for every occasion.


6. Should picking off my opponent's scout rate high on my focus list (assuming they have demo units)?


Yes, especially if you have an enchantress. No offensive will be viable if they do not have a scout. Now, that's not to say that you should rush recklessly after their scout. Most people will be wise enough to protect it. However, if it is vulnerable, you should go for it. Almost any individual unit for their scout is a good trade. Also, so long as you keep pressure on their scout, you keep it out of action-- and keep them from attacking you easily.


7. List some proper attacking sequences. As in, which 2+ set of pieces should attack together. As in, should my attacks generally start off with knights or go for the pyros/dark mages?

It depends on the situation. If you have, say, a 2 pyromancer/DMW knight-wall form against an opposite side formation...well, you'll want to bring your mages into play. However, you never want to expose them unduly, so you should use them as backup to your knights.

For an effective attack, you should have most of your units pressuring them. Most players use a standard multi-knight/scout flank. While that's a good start, you should really only use that as a front. Use the time they spend moving into a defensive position to advance your own units. However, if you're attacking a good defender, one mistake will end the game for you. Standard stuff, but a pretty good example is this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNPph2-0KdY



8. Is enchantress ever really a valid strategy while my opponent has a scout or anything to nick off my barrier ward?

Well, it depends on what you mean. If you mean "will my enchantress stop them once they have a few knights and a scout in my face," then the answer is no. However, the enchantress can be a very viable strategy. From the start, it stops them from using their scout to snipe your other vital units. Apart from buying your cleric a few turns, it also forces them to constantly check and re-check LOS holes. One mistake from them, and you can easily get a knight/a few knights for nothing.



9. If possable, should I be focusing on an early attack combo with barrier ward?

Depends on what you mean. The barrier ward can be used quite well in combination with attacks--namely with the DMW and the scout. If you can get an early threatening DMW, with barrier support...that's a fairly good advantage.


10. List pieces that are ok to sacrifice for another unit.


That you'll have to learn on your own, no set guidelines will ever teach it to you.


11. Is it ever ok to rush in with 1 Knight, just to go pick off an undamage cleric?


Depends. If their cleric is nice and exposed [e.g. nothing defending it], go for it. However, you'd usually be better sending in a scout or an assassin to do that job-- they're better at quick hit-and-run attacks, and will usually get it done faster.


12. In early game, should I be focusing on picking off any unit I can, or should I be more focused on killing specific type of units?

Any unit you can get without losing your own is an advantage, but make sure that whatever you kill is worth any positional loss of your own.