Grey: Solid play vs Creative Play

[3000 stat]

I was thinking about this the other day what makes the best grey players the best?? I mean there is no way to concretely messure tao ability like you could for an athletic competition ai. speed, jumping ect. I think once you get to a certain understanding of the game everyone can beat everyone given luck, sets and how the game plays out EXCEPT a very small group of elite players like AFO or Lemon. So what makes these top players stand out? Are they more creative in there moves and have a "better understanding" of the game. Or do you think they arnt better at all but just play more solidly and there lack of mistakes lead to more wins. Watching Lemons videos really got me thinking about this. I tried to see what I would do/think if I were in lemons postion and most of the time It was very simular to what he did, the only times we differed in opinion I relized my move would have been overly risky and unnesacary. Which make me think maybe the best players just play more solidly and constantly. I'm interested to see what others think. Or do I have the whole concept of being "good" wrong. Lol yes call me a nerd or whatever for spend time thinking about stratagies and concepts of tao and obviously spending the time posting about it (but I dont spend time checking the grammer or spelling.)

[Pikachu!]

EXCEPT a very small group of elite players like AFO

*laugh*

Yes, though. The "elite" players are simply those that make fewer mistakes than your normal player, and can play consistently. However, that doesn't just mean that they don't make mistakes-- everyone makes mistakes, unless they play perfectly [ha; they don't].

Creativity does aid a player, if simply because it proposes new threats that the other player has to think about-- and they are then more likely to make mistakes. If you have to respond to a new threat, you are more likely to make a poor choice than if you had played against that threat 1000 times.

So as for your title..."Solid play vs. Creative play"...I think that the players who are at the top of the gray ladder encompass both, rather than one winning out against the other.

[Xiahou Dun]

If you're winning. Play Solid. If you're losing. Play Creative.If you don't know whether you're winning or losing then you're not at a high enough level of play to worry about this sort of thing anyway.

[3000 stat]

Yeah the title should be solid and/or creativitity. But yes if I'm losing I'm much more apt to go for lucky hits. After thinking about it more I think the best players are the ones who can adapt the best to any situation and dont just base there play off of the same "set" of moves or "rules". For example Lemon talked about how most players just instantly flank in opp side turt games even if theres better options. Btw yeah AFO is a bad example of a top player : P.

[|AFO|]

*laugh*However, that doesn't just mean that they don't make mistakes-- everyone makes mistakes, unless they play perfectly [ha; they don't].

You're wrong. Zero mistake games exist.

[xEaglex]

You're wrong. Zero mistake games exist.

So true. In turtle/free it's harder to evaluate since their are wayyy more options. But in grey, you can tell if it's been a perfect game on both sides.

[Xiahou Dun]

You're wrong. Zero mistake games exist.

How would you know. It's not Connect 4. You can play a game without making any bad moves but how could anyone say with confidence that every single move was "The BEST Move"?

[3000 stat]

Eh there may be a CLOSE to perfect game. But there is neraly impossible to have a flawlessly perfect down to the way peices are turning game let alone player. Think about it you have about 100 options each turn aproximently, you would need to make the best move out of the 100 every time. 100*100*100*100= 100000000 possible move combos and thats only 4 turns.

[xEaglex]

*winks at AFO*

There are rarely more than 3 possible moves per turn.

[Xiahou Dun]

Think about it you have about 100 options each turn aproximently, you would need to make the best move out of the 100 every time. 100*100*100*100= 100000000 possible move combos and thats only 4 turns.

Umm.

Lol yes call me a nerd or whatever for spend time thinking about stratagies and concepts of tao and obviously spending the time posting about it (but I dont spend time checking the grammer or spelling.)

Youre not doing yourself any favours here are you?

[3000 stat]

:P Should have never mentioned afos name in here hes not even THAT good.

[Xiahou Dun]

:P Should have never mentioned afos name in here hes not even THAT good.

Also I heard he's preeeeeetttyyy racist...

[3000 stat]

Umm.



Youre not doing yourself any favours here are you?

Lol it doesn't matter to me this is a forum for tao so why not post my thoughts on its stratagy.

[Xiahou Dun]

Lol it doesn't matter to me this is a forum for tao so why not post my thoughts on its stratagy.

I was talking about the whole maths thing. You specifically state that you are aware of the fact that people may percieve you as a nerd so you decide to move onto the subject of Arithmancy. It's not really the best counterargument to the situation wouldn't you say?

[Pikachu!]

You're wrong. Zero mistake games exist.

That depends on your definition of a mistake. I consider a mistake anything that gives your opponent a chance to have an advantage over you, however small that advantage is. So, if you can give me an example of a game (play by play) where there have been no mistakes, then I will happily concede the issue.

[3000 stat]

Im not arguing that people will percieve me as a nerd. Some might my point is that It doesnt matter to me if they do or not. Anyways back on topic? Adaptive/less experianced player vs Experianced/ less natually creative. Who wins? I think the new play who doesnt doesnt base moves off of what hes seen before but just plays smart.

[Xiahou Dun]

Both is desirable but if a lesser player MUST choose one then Solid play is the bigger factor.

[Pikachu!]

The more experienced player, if you're talking in terms of skill. Creativity won't derail tactical thought.

[3000 stat]

Theres a difference between "tactical thought" and strategical thought. Ill explain what I mean in a bit Im a bit busy right now.

[Pikachu!]

Theres a difference between "tactical thought" and strategical thought. Ill explain what I mean in a bit Im a bit busy right now.

Bah. You know what I meant, don't get into semantics with me.

[lemon_]

So true. In turtle/free it's harder to evaluate since their are wayyy more options.

Hahahahaha. This made my day :D

[xEaglex]

Hahahahaha. This made my day :D

It's true. In grey, you can evaluate every viable move you have and every viable following move the opponent will have since there are so few. You know what I'm talking about; in your videos you always point out when the opponent makes a useless move because you know what their one or two viable moves were.

In free, its like:

Is he going to focus on my range? Or my power units? Or maybe my vitals? And then once you figure that out...

Can I attack something else faster? Maybe I can get his cleric faster than he can get (insert target here). Or maybe I should defend his attack first, weaken, and then counter-attack? Or defend all the way and frosty whore?

You've got a 5 square teleporting mud that can also mudquake, a 4 square teleporting dragon, 2 scouts, sometimes frost, sometimes DSM, sometimes stone.

The speed that you can carry out plans and the options that you have to do them all make freestyle/turtle harder to evaluate. You can't predict nearly as far ahead; sometimes you can't even predict 2 turns ahead. In grey, it's a slow developing battle. You can't strike at the vitals quickly with a dragon hop, mud teleport and scout flank.. You can't focus on the range since you have to slowly go through the knights anyway to do it. You can't bait with a furgon/frost/wisp combo. There are no options other than slow development.

Obviously, you have some different opinion though, since you are laughing :P

[lemon_]

Yes, my opinion is very different. I dont know where you play freestyle, but in my games, all I do is smack the units that come near me. And i win majority of my freestyle games. There's no need to think about everything you wrote, because you can just hit stuff and you're good. Okay, time to time I do think about order of how I should hit stuff, but that's pushing it. I do that and i win against everyone except the very very best freestylers, so my opinion freestyle's complexity isn't too high.

On grey on the other hand, I have played about 100 times more games than free, and still, each time I play it im learning new things. I actually have to think and there's always a chance I'll lose even against much weaker opponents, because I still can't understand everything correctly.

I won't even talk about turtle :p.

[xEaglex]

Well, just think about it logically. Which kind of game gives you more options? And shouldn't the game that has more options for each player be harder to evaluate?

It's strange that we both think opposite; I do almost no thinking in grey games and vice versa. And we're both pretty good ^_^

[lemon_]

Having units that move in more complex patterns doesn't make the game more complex. Think of go. It might be more complex at first until you are used to the movements of units, but after that it doesn't matter at all. And yes, it does give you some more options, I mean your units can reach more squares and if you're a robot and just look at each possible move and try to figure out if its good, well, then you might find freestyle harder to evaluate.

For me, freestyle is just as same as grey from the tactical side, but it has almost no strategy compared to it making it pretty much a mechanical game.

[xEaglex]

I'm a robot. Beep boop.

[Soda]

I am the best.

[Memory of Light]

its pretty much true that in free all you have to do is hit stuff. with cleric and attackers especially you arent really frosting or anything. you just need to deal damage faster.

[bludhoundz]

Solid play is required for most situations, there isn't always room for creativity -- sometimes the best option is fairly obvious or just not that complicated.

However, I believe that creative play is what puts an excellent player over a good player.

[NejixKun]

I think solid play is more important. Position in gray matters much more than position in free or turtle, because of the wards, and the limited movement of the units. Playing solid and covering your position is much more beneficial to you in gray than in gold games.

[DOCTOR DEVICE]

Yes, my opinion is very different. I dont know where you play freestyle, but in my games, all I do is smack the units that come near me. And i win majority of my freestyle games. There's no need to think about everything you wrote, because you can just hit stuff and you're good. Okay, time to time I do think about order of how I should hit stuff, but that's pushing it. I do that and i win against everyone except the very very best freestylers, so my opinion freestyle's complexity isn't too high.

On grey on the other hand, I have played about 100 times more games than free, and still, each time I play it im learning new things. I actually have to think and there's always a chance I'll lose even against much weaker opponents, because I still can't understand everything correctly.

I won't even talk about turtle :p.

Well, your primary style is grey so no wonder you think that. Mine is freestyle, so I agree with eagle. I'm sure someone like uall thinks the most nuanced style is turt.

Not that I'm objective, but the increase in variables in gold freestyle would suggest it's the hardest to play. That, and set advantage is most prevalent in that style.

[-=Gun=-]

I agree that there is never a perfect game. Perfect being in the aspect that no mistakes were made during game and every move as absolutely the best move, who's to judge?
I feel solid play and creative play need to be mixed. Since i myself as a player:
1. Am not very versatile and am only actually good freestyle or grey.
2. Am not very consistent and can play great one game and terribly the next.

I think the question being asked here is to vague that which is better? since both are aspects of the game and implementing both is probably a win-win situation even if you don;t win your current game.

Not to mention on a different note most of the players we percieve to be the "elite" players are highly overrated. I'm not saying they're bad but they're overrated. Though ive been overrated and underrated by people sp it;s only common in this kind of game.

[Pikachu!]

most of the players we percieve to be the "elite" players are highly overrated

Yes. *applause*

______

Gray is less "complex" than freestyle, yes. There /are/ fewer options per move, per strategy. However, there is a more strategic aspect to gray than there is to freestyle. Meaning, you have to actually strategize for high-level gray games. In freestyle, you just beat the other player up. A bit of luck, perhaps some formation advantage, you can beat anyone; just out-bash them.

[-=Gun=-]

Yes. *applause*

its true

theres only so good you can get at this game.

[Sniper Master]

I always have perfect games.

[redreoicy]

Of course there are perfect games. Just the other day I had one. In fact I played so perfectly, I didn't even make a move before they surrendered.

[-=Gun=-]

Of course there are perfect games. Just the other day I had one. In fact I played so perfectly, I didn't even make a move before they surrendered.

I'd say a perfect game would be to not make any moves and kill all of your opponents units at the same time.

I always have perfect games.

lulz.

[NejixKun]

I'd say a perfect game would be to not make any moves and kill all of your opponents units at the same time.


/FACEPALM

I don't think he got it. Yes, CAPS ARE ALWAYS NECESSARY, ok?

[-=Gun=-]

/FACEPALM

I don't think he got it. Yes, CAPS ARE ALWAYS NECESSARY, ok?

it was a joke

smooth move on the un-needed sarcasm.

[NejixKun]

it was a joke

smooth move on the un-needed sarcasm.

What did he mean then?

[-=Gun=-]

he meant that he jumped someone or got jumped and the opposing person forfeited the game before either person could make a move. quite simple.

[Sniper Master]

lulz.

What's funny about what I said?

[LosPollos]

Creative play at this point in the stage of grey is basically an impossibility. Part of what makes something creative, is that it is new, and obviously, something can only be new once. The fact that to be creative it must also be effective(i.e. it serves a purpose) in addition to being new, using "creative play" in grey isn't really something that can really be done.

[DOCTOR DEVICE]

Yes. *applause*

______

Gray is less "complex" than freestyle, yes. There /are/ fewer options per move, per strategy. However, there is a more strategic aspect to gray than there is to freestyle. Meaning, you have to actually strategize for high-level gray games. In freestyle, you just beat the other player up. A bit of luck, perhaps some formation advantage, you can beat anyone; just out-bash them.

I don't know what freestyle or grey or turtle you are playing, but you win every game by "bashing other units". Just because it happens faster in freestyle doesn't mean it's not as strategic.

[NejixKun]

he meant that he jumped someone or got jumped and the opposing person forfeited the game before either person could make a move. quite simple.

/FACEPALM.

Read this again.

I didn't even make a move before they surrendered

You just repeated what he said...

[Pikachu!]

I don't know what freestyle or grey or turtle you are playing, but you win every game by "bashing other units". Just because it happens faster in freestyle doesn't mean it's not as strategic.

Try to play gray the same way you play freestyle, against me. Go for your "damage over heals" advice; try to win by beating me up more than I beat you up. I can guarantee that, super-luck nonwithstanding, you will lose every game.

[kinavu]

Creativity does aid a player, if simply because it proposes new threats that the other player has to think about-- and they are then more likely to make mistakes. If you have to respond to a new threat, you are more likely to make a poor choice than if you had played against that threat 1000 times.

[lemon_]

Bump. Im bored.

Creative play at this point in the stage of grey is basically an impossibility. Part of what makes something creative, is that it is new, and obviously, something can only be new once. The fact that to be creative it must also be effective(i.e. it serves a purpose) in addition to being new, using "creative play" in grey isn't really something that can really be done.

It depends on what you define as creative play. To me a creative play is simply a maneuver that is somewhat unexpected and surprising. Or a plan. Anything. Each game grey game I play, I discover new things, new tools to add to my arsenal. And I admit, I do feel quite proud when I look at some of my recent games and stuff I did in them. Interesting thing is, when I release a few videos of my games, people don't even notice them or actually mark them as mistakes. And in the actual games, my opponents don't really understand what's going on, it's kinda funny. And im not talking about some random newbs, im talking about serious tournament players. Creative play is there, maybe you just can't understand it? :eek:


theres only so good you can get at this game.

I beg to differ, at least when talking about grey. I took my grey game a step further recently, and it kinda opened my eyes. When I look at my games from a year ago, they just look so simple, blunt, so ... pathetic. I understand so much more right now, it's quite ridiculous that back then I used to think I knew everything there was to know about grey.

The grey play is always evolving, you just don't see it (because you don't play, maybe...). If I were to play the best grey player 2-3 years ago, I'd not drop them a game in best out of 21 match. Honestly, im very exited (spelling?) about the current situation and very much looking forward how the game will develop. Most of the people have basics down by now, and are actually learning how to play the game, not just making random moves.


Oh and, solid play won't win you the games against the best players. It will crush worse players, but against the best you'll need to actually put pressure on them, force them into difficult situations where there's no simple moves.

Bah, got to go. To be continued.

[Coffin Fedder]

Both of those styles work, don't get me wrong. It depends on the player though, some people tend to stick with the same way they play over and over against every set. That's the Solid Player. I use every unit differently depeing on the situation, I'll move one unit you wouldn't expect me to move for a later turn which can overlay the situation. Creative Players tend to do better against Anti's while Solid Players tend to do better against a rush and a Hybird.

[xEaglex]

Isn't it exciting when you realize something that permanently elevates your game? These kind of insightful breakthroughs always happen, to me, after I stop playing a certain style for a long time. So when I get back to it, I start thinking about the game on a strictly logical sense without the bad influences that "moving by instinct" can have.

As recently as last TAL season, I remember players like Geoff/Hoolwath would sometimes tell me I was wasting a move in the middle of a game. I didn't understand, since I was usually moving a piece 3 or 4 spaces closer to the opponent.

But now I get what ya'll were trying to tell me =)

[Japtch]

I didn't understand, since I was usually moving a piece 3 or 4 spaces closer to the opponent.

But now I get what ya'll were trying to tell me =)

Nope... not me. I still don't get it.