Societal Equality

[xEaglex]

The prevailing mindset in modern America is that of equality, where every member of society should be worth the same. This bothers me. There's a difference between equality and equal opportunity. I very strongly believe in the latter idea.

Obviously, something as petty as skin color and /or race should not play any part in determining employment. If an Asian, African-American, a Hispanic or member of any other minority wants to apply for a certain position, then he/she should have the right to apply for this position. This is the practice of equal opportunity.

However, I think that placing a minority group member in said position simply because it is already filled with Caucasian members is wrong. This is the practice of equality. And this is the practice that I have seen run rampant all-around me.

Artificially raising opportunities based on race (achieving equality) is just as bad as artificially lowering them (being racist/prejudice). We should be striving for a world in which people are judged by their credentials and nothing else.

When applying to colleges a few years ago, I learned about "Affirmative Action." This policy is sometimes used to establish quotas that must be filled. For example, a university might institute a policy that says at least 20% of it's admitted students be ______. Fill in a minority.

If I am more qualified than _____, I should be admitted over him/her so I can continue my education in the best place I can. It is not fair that they get the extra nod because of an arbitrary quota.

Even in high school, you can see the ridiculousness that is "equality." I had 2 classes in which mentally disabled kids were placed among regular kids. In each instance, they dramatically inhibited the class discussions and learning by requiring an obscene amount of the teacher's attention and the class's cooperation. The reading of a paragraph would then become an hour long ordeal. There's equality for you.

The "No Child Left Behind Act" forces schools to achieve a certain minimum score on standardized tests. In our haste to stamp out failure, we are also stamping out success. The remedial (lowest level) math classes are forced to take practice standardized test seminars so they can help achieve this minimum. Great idea, right? Except, because of equality, my Advanced Calculus class has to do the same thing, as though we don't know how to multiply fractions. There's equality for you.

Thoughts?

Posted that in LF and figured I might as well post it here. It's pretty lengthy so feel free to ignore it and move on the the next thread =P

[♣NinJa TurTle♣]

makes sense!

[Mithrandir]

I agree Eagle. Affirmative action is an attempt to prevent racism, but it is just another instantiation of it.

[meat.eater]

I wouldn't go as far to say Affirmative Action is a hypocrisy, implying that it is racist. Because it's actually working within the definition of the negation of racism.
I would, however, say that it is counterproductive. Not racist in itself, but it's not preventing racism either.

And I strongly disagree that it as "just as bad" as intentionally lowering the opportunities minorities have. Affirmative action is inherently counter productive, but it is not nearly as bad as the lows this country has reached when artificially lowering the opportunities minorities have.

This is one of the reasons why I believe in true capitalism. Because capitalism, by nature, comes with no racist, sexist, ageist, or any minority driven externalities.

[iceman2001]

I'm all for having a diversity of thought and experiences within a college or even a workplace.

Sadly, I don't think affirmative action does ANYTHING to accomplish this. All it does is create a superficial "diversity" based only on skin color.

As I've attended a couple of the top schools in the country, I can tell you that the black students there do not add to the diversity in the classroom. They are generally wealthy, went to selective private schools, and have two parents who work professionally and spent a ton of time involved with their kid's academics as a child. Virtually identical culturally to their white classmates. The only difference is you get a diverse looking brochere for your college.

Instead, what I would support would be some kind of affirmative action based upon income or life experiences. Of course this would never happen, first because the rich still run this country (even if you don't realise it) and secondly it would be much more difficult to institute.

[bdog1321]

I wouldn't go as far to say Affirmative Action is a hypocrisy, implying that it is racist. Because it's actually working within the definition of the negation of racism.
I would, however, say that it is counterproductive. Not racist in itself, but it's not preventing racism either.

And I strongly disagree that it as "just as bad" as intentionally lowering the opportunities minorities have. Affirmative action is inherently counter productive, but it is not nearly as bad as the lows this country has reached when artificially lowering the opportunities minorities have.

This is one of the reasons why I believe in true capitalism. Because capitalism, by nature, comes with no racist, sexist, ageist, or any minority driven externalities.

The more I read your posts, the more I realize I've been "doin it wrong."

[xEaglex]

As I've attended a couple of the top schools in the country, I can tell you that the black students there do not add to the diversity in the classroom. They are generally wealthy, went to selective private schools, and have two parents who work professionally and spent a ton of time involved with their kid's academics as a child. Virtually identical culturally to their white classmates. The only difference is you get a diverse looking brochere for your college.
.

That's a really good point. Equality isn't something you can achieve by simply measuring out people's skin colors like crayons. You would think that society would be more culturally aware by now.

[meat.eater]

I'm all for having a diversity of thought and experiences within a college or even a workplace.

Sadly, I don't think affirmative action does ANYTHING to accomplish this. All it does is create a superficial "diversity" based only on skin color.

As I've attended a couple of the top schools in the country, I can tell you that the black students there do not add to the diversity in the classroom. They are generally wealthy, went to selective private schools, and have two parents who work professionally and spent a ton of time involved with their kid's academics as a child. Virtually identical culturally to their white classmates. The only difference is you get a diverse looking brochere for your college.

Instead, what I would support would be some kind of affirmative action based upon income or life experiences. Of course this would never happen, first because the rich still run this country (even if you don't realise it) and secondly it would be much more difficult to institute.

Aside from scholarships and acceptances (which is more about diversifying the campus so the campus itself will make more money, not necessarily about giving opportunities to minorities... they'd like you to think that, but universities are entirely bureaucratic money machines), affirmative action isn't very visible in a university atmosphere. That's always been a strange little microcosm of equality that doesn't exist anywhere else in the frickin' world.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with the rich running the country. Someone has to... and I'd rather not put someone in poverty on the senate because, stereotypical as it may be, they probably know severely less about how the country is actually run (which is by money: kind of a foreign concept to them). I thought I sensed cynicism, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Lex]

Who wants equality? I want to be better than everyone else, and I want them to know it.

[bdog1321]

Who wants equality? I want to be better than everyone else, and I want them to know it.

*bows*

[xEaglex]

Who wants equality? I want to be better than everyone else, and I want them to know it.

See, that statement just sounds mean (say it in real life and look at the reaction you'll get), but always striving to better oneself is really a noble goal. Only those too lazy to have that drive think otherwise.

[Realist]

As I've attended a couple of the top schools in the country, I can tell you that the black students there do not add to the diversity in the classroom. They are generally wealthy, went to selective private schools, and have two parents who work professionally and spent a ton of time involved with their kid's academics as a child.

Doesn't comport with my experiences at random top school at all (and I honestly doubt the policies are all that different--perhaps ideology colors perception). I would be extremely surprised if "generally went to selective private schools" is a true statement applied to the black students at whatever university you're talking about. It's definitely true that the top schools are only willing to give a few hundred points leeway to blacks on the SAT because they want to maintain their averages, and that keeps out many of the worst off and most culturally distinct, but there's no reason to overstate the case.

[iceman2001]

Really, I don't know if it is overstating the case. I can only think of three (out of hundreds) of black students that I've met at 4-5 ivies that didn't come from the suburbs just like their white classmates. Absolutely none came from inner city public schools. After all, these black students who would bring true diversity to the campus were competing for spots against more affluent black families who could afford a better education, private tutors, SAT prep courses, ect.

The three I can think of actually were from Africa, and provided a drastically different viewpoint that I greatly appreciated. My brother is in Kenya with a program that tries to place their most talented into top tier American schools as we speak.

edit:
I'm now pursuing graduate work at the college of new jersey. Although the general student is not nearly as much of a scholar, I can say that they do indeed have at least some diversity. This is due to rigorous New Jersey programs which try to place top students from impoverished area into colleges within the state. The Aid packages to some of these kids is fantastic- I work in the financial aid department at the college as well.

[Rubbish]

I agree eagle, merit should be the only premise for the acceptance of college applications. If you meet all of the requisites imposed by the university, no external factor should jeopardize your acceptance in it.

[Realist]

Really, I don't know if it is overstating the case. I can only think of three (out of hundreds) of black students that I've met at 4-5 ivies that didn't come from the suburbs just like their white classmates.

Suburbs!=selective private schools.

Absolutely none came from inner city public schools.

Not only do I know blacks who came from inner city public schools at my university, I know at least one who went to yours. So maybe you're just hanging out with the wrong crowd?

[sayter]

To add to this discussion:

Recently in Toronto they opened an all-black school. There was a lot of controversy over this (and rightly so) because it was viewed as largely unnecessary. Their "reasons" for opening it were that the black students were scoring lower than they should have been. Rather than attribute this to home life, financial situations, gangs, or any other such factor, they simply assumed that black students were "unhappy" with the current education system and thus should be given the opportunity to learn "among their own".

Consequently, I don't see this affecting grades one bit. You want to stop kids dropping out? crack down on the area they live in. Flush out the crap that forces them into a situation that makes them drop out in the first place.

The opening of "race specific" schools is a step backward, not a step forward.

Note: I am not implying that black students are less than other colors, in any way. I am stating that social situation is almost entirely the cause. The majority of the students in the area live in low income housing, with poor families and "no where to go" mentality has thus rooted itself in their minds. This leads to gang membership, youth violence, intolerance and other issues. The same would apply to any ethnic group in the same situation.


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/298714


And to play devils advocate: You can bet your ass if a "white centric" school was open, there would be protests, cries of racism...and possible firebombing. Good times. Why the double standard?

[Garack]

Artificially raising opportunities based on race (achieving equality) is just as bad as artificially lowering them (being racist/prejudice). We should be striving for a world in which people are judged by their credentials and nothing else.

Very true indeed, But somtimes Certain groups of people need a boost to help get them and their familes out of there current reality. It takes One mother/father to get a helping hand and a better job. getting this job might help them move from one very Bad neighborhood to a better one. Suddenly there children live a different reality, where college is no longer a dream. The childern no longer need affirmative action, as a program they are now able to compete on the same level as all other canidates.

I think that is the thought process behind it.. Its not perfect and it doesnt always work, But for some familes it does do the trick.

[R G]

I never understood why you "need" diversity in a school anyway? You are there for an education. You select what courses you take....Right?

I certainly understand that having a diverse atmosphere can help in your overall education of life...that is to understand people who are different than yourself....this would go for race or religion or any of a host of other cultural differences....but why is it that it seems that universities feel that they must force this issue when you control your choices of courses or field of study?

[meat.eater]

I never understood why you "need" diversity in a school anyway? You are there for an education. You select what courses you take....Right?

I certainly understand that having a diverse atmosphere can help in your overall education of life...that is to understand people who are different than yourself....this would go for race or religion or any of a host of other cultural differences....but why is it that it seems that universities feel that they must force this issue when you control your choices of courses or field of study?

It's about money. If you give someone who may be otherwise denied the opportunity to make money the ability to make success and money, they're much more likely to donate to your institution over some middle class white kid who's been programmed to expect success for his whole life.

[I MaFiA I]

Not only do I know blacks who came from inner city public schools at my university, I know at least one who went to yours. So maybe you're just hanging out with the wrong crowd?

pwned.

[ScytheMan]

I'm Native American. Get off my land White Man... and Black Man too.

Seriously though, I am and I could have put it on my college apps and gotten in to some really good schools with money to boot. I however think that's bull and just put down white. I don't want to get into Yale because I'm 1/16th Native American when my valedictorian who worked much harder than I did and deserves it a whole lot more got rejected.

[Realist]

It's about money. If you give someone who may be otherwise denied the opportunity to make money the ability to make success and money, they're much more likely to donate to your institution over some middle class white kid who's been programmed to expect success for his whole life.

This a million ways of absurdity. The people donating to universities are still overwhelmingly white and on one expects that to change soon. Affirmative action really is ideological. Disagree with it or don't, but the people who believe in it are rather certain its the right thing to do, or else think that doing it will make people look at them as more upstanding citizens and improve the reputation of their institutions. There may be some element of cynicism in the whole affair, but trust me, it's not about getting money from black people.

[R G]

I'm Native American. Get off my land White Man... and Black Man too.

Seriously though, I am and I could have put it on my college apps and gotten in to some really good schools with money to boot. I however think that's bull and just put down white. I don't want to get into Yale because I'm 1/16th Native American when my valedictorian who worked much harder than I did and deserves it a whole lot more got rejected.


I seriously got to admire a person that wants to gain something by their own merits or work rather than have it given to them for whatever reason.

It's the biggest reason that I am against National Healthcare....want healthcare work for it....sounds harsh, but really the only thing standing in someones way of achieving anything is usually themselves.

Do somethings need to be changed with healthcare...Hell yea they do! Start with tort reform....lawyers drive up the cost of healthcare more than all of the other stuff you have heard.

[Match Strike]

Income based affirmative action is a good idea. But that doesn't mean race based affirmative action is bad, either.

And yes, it is a moral argument. Being born black in this country is a major societal handicap. How it compares to being poor, I couldn't say. I have experience working in schools with poor white and native american children, but not blacks.

RG, based on their circumstances some people have to work a lot harder to achieve equivalent success as others. That's the point of affirmative action.

[meat.eater]

This a million ways of absurdity. The people donating to universities are still overwhelmingly white and on one expects that to change soon. Affirmative action really is ideological. Disagree with it or don't, but the people who believe in it are rather certain its the right thing to do, or else think that doing it will make people look at them as more upstanding citizens and improve the reputation of their institutions. There may be some element of cynicism in the whole affair, but trust me, it's not about getting money from black people.

Oh, nonono. I wasn't arguing it was about getting money from black people... I'm simply arguing that I don't think the University setting particularly cares about affirmative action very much and that they have a different agenda for promoting adversity (be it money, or attracting more people who are likely to give more money, or promotional advertising, etc). Universities only award scholarships to people who they forsee making them money in the long run.

[Hatchet Klown]

Income based affirmative action is a good idea. But that doesn't mean race based affirmative action is bad, either.

And yes, it is a moral argument. Being born black in this country is a major societal handicap. How it compares to being poor, I couldn't say. I have experience working in schools with poor white and native american children, but not blacks.

RG, based on their circumstances some people have to work a lot harder to achieve equivalent success as others. That's the point of affirmative action.

I could atleast someone understand an income based AA in the university setting; however as Meat has already said colleges are essentially money making machines. You'll hear them talk about their "endowment" in a way that makes it seem like they give it all back, however it's essentially a personal savings account for the university.

Back to the original subject, if we were to implement a true Affirmitive Action system based on income and nothing else into the collegiate system, there would be no need for government regulation on hiring in the private sector. They would do what should be done, hire the best candidate for the job based on merits.

However, we all need to be realistic and know that the current AA system will only be "strengthened" under Obama. We can look forward to 2012, eh?

[mushroom_girl]

It's the biggest reason that I am against National Healthcare....want healthcare work for it....sounds harsh, but really the only thing standing in someones way of achieving anything is usually themselves.
I don't think anyone should be denied health care, because that is something that everyone NEEDS. Medical bills are too expensive, and it's ironic that only the rich get it. I think there's something wrong there.

I've been to three different types of schools: a private grammar/middle school, public high school where it was 70% black or spanish, and a public high school where it is 80% white. I've experienced being a minority and majority, and just saying that not everything is equal. In a school where the majority is the national minority, there is much more funding. That school had brand new buildings, cafeterias, and auditorium. The mostly white school I went to is being condemned in 2 years if not remodeled.

The fact is is that having minority students increases the amount of money a school gets.

I've been a victim of racism because I'm white, and I've seen it towards black and spanish people as well. But I do NOT believe that affirmative action or any sort of program like that will help get rid of racism. If anything, it pushes it so that kids (no matter what color) are treated unfairly. I believe that people should earn their way based on their own merit, not what they look like. That is why I object to asking for a person's race on an application or standardized test.

[Hatchet Klown]

I don't think anyone should be denied health care, because that is something that everyone NEEDS. Medical bills are too expensive, and it's ironic that only the rich get it. I think there's something wrong there.

I think there's something wrong with your assumption that only the rich get healthcare.

Anyone in this country is capable of getting health care if they're willing to work for it. I have no problem helping provide reasonable priced (or in some cases, free) healthcare for those that are physically unable to provide for themselves, however I refuse to just give blanket health care to the lazy who are already pilfering the American government.

The entire aid system needs to be rewritten before we even consider any form of health care overhaul.

[CRX687]

I never understood why you "need" diversity in a school anyway? You are there for an education. You select what courses you take....Right?

I certainly understand that having a diverse atmosphere can help in your overall education of life...that is to understand people who are different than yourself....this would go for race or religion or any of a host of other cultural differences....but why is it that it seems that universities feel that they must force this issue when you control your choices of courses or field of study?

Education is about the exhange of ideas and exposure to different perspectives. A class discussion on a certain issue that includes people of all races and backgrounds will be more comprehensive than a a bunch of kids that all grew up in the same place saying "I agree". Thus the idea is that a diverse student body makes the education of everyone better. The university's purpose is to create an environment that promotes the exchange of ALL ideas, thus they must force the issue because diversity in and of itself benefits the education of all of it's students.

If you believe that (it seems logical to me) then affirmative action can be justified as a means to maximize the education of everyone at a university.

Affirmative action in the workplace and other places can be justified as a way to adjust for policies that structrually/subconsciously put other races on unequal footing. Yes, eagle, the opportunity today might be equal, but remember that equal rules only make for a fair game if everyone starts with the same resources. Our policies/rules of the past: ie. zoning laws in the 50's that made it impossible for a generation of african americans to obtain prime real estate, or subsidy schemes during the 30's that made it hard for blacks to get a foothold in agriculture have very real effects today.

If you understand that what we see today is partially due to a past that is unfair, and many policies we have in place systemically place minorities at a disadvantage, then you'll see that keeping things they way they are is actually a form of de-facto affirmative action for whites. If a process is "fair", then, if everything else are equal, it must have fair results. The argument then is that if you say the process is fair, then why does it not have fair results? If the poor are simply "lazy", then you'd be making the claim that certain minority groups are inherently lazier than others... a claim that has been proven false by geneticists, anthropologists, and sociologists alike since the 70's. In other words, there must be something in the way our system works that's not obvious but is effectively discriminating. Affirmative action is a patch to "fix" this in the absence of a better understanding on what exactly is going on.

[Match Strike]

I think there's something wrong with your assumption that only the rich get healthcare.

Anyone in this country is capable of getting health care if they're willing to work for it. I have no problem helping provide reasonable priced (or in some cases, free) healthcare for those that are physically unable to provide for themselves, however I refuse to just give blanket health care to the lazy who are already pilfering the American government.

The entire aid system needs to be rewritten before we even consider any form of health care overhaul.

Fundamentally untrue, look up policy recension post diagnosis. And also a thread deraillment.