The Doppleganger

[Scipio]

The Doppelganger

These gray featureless bipeds with large black eyes study the field of battle for unsuspecting opponents to mimic. Stealthy, fast, and devious, these horrors first attempt to annoy opponents, while hoping to entice its victums into combat so it may assume their form.


Statistics

Hit points: 35
Power: 12 or *Special*
Movement: 5 or *Special*
Recovery Time: 1 or *Special*

Armor: 50% or *Special*
Blocking: 0%

Attack Pattern:
Any adjacent square or *Special*

Special Abilities:
Morphing- If an opponent damages a Doppelganger, it will morph into the opponent's unit that damaged it (the damaging unit must be animate, so no lightning ward morphing!). It gains all the statistics as the new unit, except hit points, and blocking (note the *Special* above). It should also be noted that the Doppelganger's recovery time resets after they morph. So they may choose to retaliate, or flee, in their new form after receiving damage.


Tactics

The Doppelganger's greatest strength is being a nuisance. It is mobile and fast to recover, but does low damage in its native state. If an opponent decides to try and kill the Doppelganger, they know they must then deal with whatever they are attacking it with, since the Doppelganger will morph into that unit, thus gaining its increased combat prowess.


Ok, there is my idea. Let me know if there are ways to impove it. I think this unit would be filled with strategy.

-Scipio-

[Scipio]

No one has an opinion on this?

I find that strange in such a vocal forum ;)

-Scipio-

[GeneralBenedict]

I like it.

[Bottle]

Too weak. Power 8 won't even scratch most things. So people would just leave it 'til last, then kill it. It carries no threat.

[Scipio]

True, but if they keep ignoring it, then it will injure several units over time. The designer could always adjust things like power to make a unit balanced. Besides, this forum is for concepts not balancing. What do you think of the morphing skill? I think the premisis of the idea will bring about some good strats if the unit is balanced well.

Thanks for the comment though.

-Scipio-

[Omega_Paladin]

I like it. It would really easy to kill though. And on these forums most people make a concept then others help them perfect it.

[plusminus]

You said it doesn't gain blocking from the unit that attacks it, but you didn't include a blocking stat for it, as far as I can see.

And if that's the case, it's far too weak against knights. One hit would take it down to 8 HP, and without decent blocking or armor, it's likely going to die in it's next turn or two. Even if it lives, then you've got an underpowered knight, which is likely worse than an assassin or other unit.

Does it morph more than once if it gets hit a second time and lives? That would make things more interesting.

As for the morphing idea itself... well that I kind of like. I'd say it would be better to either give it the armor and HP of the unit that attacked it (proportionately - ie if it had half of it's 30HP after being attacked, it would have half of the max HP of whatever unit attacked it when it morphed) or beef the HP up a lot.

Hmm, what about a doppel-golem? 60 HP, no armor, little to no blocking...

[Scipio]

Yeah it just keeps on morphing as long as its hit.

Also, I didnt list a block stat because it has no block.

Well, I think th concept is pretty cool and unique, but everyone is right.... the stats would need tweaked for survivability. We would just have to be careful not to make it too tough.

One more thing, remember that is can get another action right after it morphs, regardless off its recovery.

People could move it back or retaliate. Also, you could put him near your priest so if he is hit by an area effect spell he would morph then too.

-Scipio-

[Scipio]

OK, I after some thought I bumped up the HP to 35 and the Attack Power to 12.

This way it can survive a lightning blast and take a couple knight hits.

The increase in attack power lets it kill a cleric in two hits. Adding to it being a good pest.

Thanks for the suggestions,
-Scipio-

[LondonJack]

The ability is interesting, but the unit itself needs alot of work. As has been mentioned, It's too weak in every department to last long, and the fact that its morph is triggered by an attack is bad for two reasons:

1: It's ability (which is the only redeeming quality of this unit) is dependant on it being damaged and left nearly dead (since it has no armor, blocking and little life, any attack would be one attack from dead for this guy)

2: this gives too much discretion to your opponent as to what that ability does (who would attack it with anything except a knight or assassin, especially with the blocking restrictions)

[Office_Shredder]

It should have 40 armor (not blocking) or something.... i mean, it is a grey blob, how can you hurt it?

[Scipio]

Originally posted by LondonJack
1: It's ability (which is the only redeeming quality of this unit) is dependant on it being damaged and left nearly dead (since it has no armor, blocking and little life, any attack would be one attack from dead for this guy)

Fair enough. Maybe we should give the unit high armor in its true form, like the poster below you suggested. Maybe 50%. Then it could take on the armor of the new form after it morphs.

Originally posted by LondonJack 2: this gives too much discretion to your opponent as to what that ability does (who would attack it with anything except a knight or assassin, especially with the blocking restrictions)

Well, I believe it adds some strategy that way. You could go offensive with it and thats what most would do. Try and take it out with a knight or assassin, but you could also turtle it and save it for later, once those units are narrowed down. One could also place it around your units to further limit your opponents options for area effect spells.

Thanks for the input LondonJack

-Scipio-

BTW I am updating the original post with my changes to armor.

[Bottle]

50 armour is too high, with a stonie on it that gives it true HP of 175. Far too much. Try something like 35 armour, or boost its HP up to 50 and reduce armour to 15.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Bottle
50 armour is too high, with a stonie on it that gives it true HP of 175. Far too much. Try something like 35 armour, or boost its HP up to 50 and reduce armour to 15.

Hmmm but it would only take half damage from the first hit. Then it would have the armor of the new form.

For example:

A knight hits the doppelganger and does 11 damage.

The doppelganger now turns into a knight, but has 24 life left. It also has the knights 25% armor now as well, not 50%.

That may sound weak and a poor trade, but remember that the doppelganger can act again after being hit, regardless of its recovery time. So they can retreat it or have it attack something close.

That still may seem a poor trade, but one would need to be a little sneaky with the unit, so the opponent doesnt always have a clear easy choice on how to deal with it.

I would play defensive with it at first. Then later use it to antagonize the cleric or maybe a caster (hopefully AWAY from knights and assassins)

[Bottle]

What I meant was, stone the doppelganger, giving it armour 80. Then a knight hit will reduce it by 5 HP, leaving it on 30, with 55 armour instead of 80. That's just too much armour.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Bottle
What I meant was, stone the doppelganger, giving it armour 80. Then a knight hit will reduce it by 5 HP, leaving it on 30, with 55 armour instead of 80. That's just too much armour.

OK. Even then it would only save it 6 life for one attack. That matters a lot, but isnt that the benifit of having a stone golem? I mean, its going to have another units armor rating for the rest of the match.

Maybe I should put the life back to 30....

Its hard to think through something like this without testing it out.

[Kos-Mos]

I think it needs better hp like 40 or 50

Also a lil blocking would help

But overall morphing is downright SWEET

[plusminus]

Other factors that need considering:
-Does it morph when attacked by Barrier Wards/Lightning Ward/Paralyzers? What about Stone Golems? Clerics even? (because using a cleric is technically 'attacking' all your own players)
-What happens with regards to Dragons/DSMs? because a Dragon counts as 2 units, and because of the whole Dragonspeaking thing.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by plusminus
Other factors that need considering:
-Does it morph when attacked by Barrier Wards/Lightning Ward/Paralyzers? What about Stone Golems? Clerics even? (because using a cleric is technically 'attacking' all your own players)

I would say those would be exceptions.

The units would need to be damaged (not attacked) by an ENEMY unit to morph. So frost golems and enchanteresses would be good against them, since they do not damage the doppelganger.

Also, the damaging unit would need to be animate. So no wards.


Originally posted by plusminus
-What happens with regards to Dragons/DSMs? because a Dragon counts as 2 units, and because of the whole Dragonspeaking thing.

I would say anything goes here. If a dragonspeaker hurts itm then it would morph into a dragonspeak mage. So you would basically have an extra pyromancer if you did not have a dragon as well.

I would think an opponent would need to really make sure not to injure a doppelganger with a dragon tyrant :D I mean, who wants to give someone an 11 unit count on the field! I think it should be a posibility though.

Thanks for those concerns!

-Scipio-

[plusminus]

Actually my main point with regards to the DSM, is, what happens if you've already got a DSM and/or Dragon Tyrant, and you get another one with the doppelganger? Does it work with dragonspeaking the same way, or does it not apply because it wouldn't be a *real* Dragon/DSM?

I'd say it would be best that a real DSM can't channel power from a DG Dragon, and a DG DSM is like a normal pyro - recieves bonuses from the real DSM, but doesn't dragonspeak.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by plusminus I'd say it would be best that a real DSM can't channel power from a DG Dragon, and a DG DSM is like a normal pyro - recieves bonuses from the real DSM, but doesn't dragonspeak.

I would have to agree with you on that point.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Kos-Mos
I think it needs better hp like 40 or 50

Also a lil blocking would help

But overall morphing is downright SWEET

Well, I think it is workable with lower HP for 2 reasons:

1) It gets to act immediately after morphing. So it can retreat to heal if need be.

2) Morphing could be a powerful skill. So it needs to be balanced for that. Is 35 too little or too much? I wouldnt know until I could test it.

Also, I agree, a morphing unit will be way cool for strategies.

[Scipio]

Are we allowed to bump posts every-so-often so new peeps can check it out?

-Scipio-

[someone]

yes

[Snork]

Originally posted by Bottle
What I meant was, stone the doppelganger, giving it armour 80. Then a knight hit will reduce it by 5 HP, leaving it on 30, with 55 armour instead of 80. That's just too much armour.

Or he could get hit by a pyro and have 0 armor.
That's what makes it so interesting, it can become anything, and take on the strengths and weaknesses of that unit.

[Siquo]

I wouldnt use it, because the opponent can choose what it becomes, and I like my opponent not having a lot of options.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Siquo
I wouldnt use it, because the opponent can choose what it becomes, and I like my opponent not having a lot of options.

That scenario does not have to happen. You could pick and choose when you want to attack with the Doppelganger, thus limiting your opponent on how they are going to deal with it. Imagine it being used later in the game going after weakened units. Then it would be useful without morphing. If they come after it, they waste turns trying to setup who they want to hit it. All the while you are going on with your normal strat. I think the ball could still be in the Doppelganger players court, they would just need to be sneaky.

[PeteBDawg]

I don't think I've yet seen the ideal "shapeshifter" type unit yet, where the ability is balanced.

But you can tweak this all you want, and even if you balance it, it's still not going to make the game better. There are still only two scenarios involving a shapeshifter unit -

1. You copy a unit no more or less valuable than a unit you could have put into your formation anyway from the start, which is stupid, because it wastes time you could have been using more constructively.

2. You copy a unit so powerful that it either breaks the game mechanics or gives you a decisive advantage over the long haul. (pretty much any gold unit except a Beast Rider).

It's obvious why option 1 is lousy, but what stymies me about these threads is why so many people see option 2 as something that will make the game better. Turning hard-earned, dynamically balanced tactical and strategic board layouts into lopsided victories with a single unit is lame. This game is designed more rigorously than that - this game is better than that.

I suppose there are some people out there who get their primary enjoyment out of this game through winning, and think "How awesome would it be to have two dragons on my team?" But they don't even seem to be thinking "How awful would it be if the other guy had two dragons on his team?"

Needless to say, if you're not one of those people, and you play the game to have fun, a shapeshifter unit would do a lot more harm than good.

Here's the deal - this game design heavily prefers long-term strategic advantages to short-term strategic advantages (that is, a huge short term advantage is easily compensated for by a very small long term advantage). Endgames are long, and even the most bold and reckless attacks in force usually take at least ten or twenty turns to complete. Having someone pay an obvious short term cost for an obvious long term gain is a strong enough quality of this game - you don't need to make it a more dominant strategy. This is the misguided function the shapeshifter performs.

You're saying "An extra dragon is worth temporary wasting a unit slot and a losing a few moves." It isn't. It's worth much much more than that. Even an extra assassin is worth losing at least six moves, provided they aren't all at once, and a dragon is worth more than two assassins, obviously. If you are determined to bring this into game mechanics without out and out ruining it, you're going to have to weaken the dragon so much or increase the initial cost of the shapeshifting so much that it isn't going to look or feel like shapeshifting anyway. So why bother?

Just say "no" to shapeshifters!

[Bottle]

Originally posted by Snork
Or he could get hit by a pyro and have 0 armor.

No, he would still have the 30 armor from the stonie.

And Pete makes a very valid point. Shapeshifters are not good.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by PeteBDawg
1. You copy a unit no more or less valuable than a unit you could have put into your formation anyway from the start, which is stupid, because it wastes time you could have been using more constructively.

This *could* be true. It really depends on your opponent options to attack you with. You have some measure of control over this by either a) protecting the Doppelganger until later in the game or b) Deciding on where and how you attack your opponent.

Besides, some units you cannot have extra of, like a knight or a third scout.


Originally posted by PeteBDawg
2. You copy a unit so powerful that it either breaks the game mechanics or gives you a decisive advantage over the long haul. (pretty much any gold unit except a Beast Rider).


Ok, but the you must remember that all special units, except the beast rider, have high hit points. The doppelganger will only have 35 minus the damage it has sustained in hit points remaining. Plus, it always has 0% blocking.

I argue that there could be a tactical advantage to this unit, because of the choices it may force your opponent to make.



Originally posted by Bottle
No, he would still have the 30 armor from the stonie.

And Pete makes a very valid point. Shapeshifters are not good.

I would think it would lose its extra armor. It would not be a tough thing to add to the shapeshifting function from a programming stance. The armor would still be usefull though, in that it would give the Doppleganger more hit points remaining after it is initially hit.

I think this unit is along the enchantress power level. Its attack could mean a lot more later in the game, so it may be wise to take it out early with magic. Then again, if you have the right units left later in the game, it may not be muhc of a threat.

I can understand why this would be a tough unit to balance based on the amount of unknowns that come into play. I just think that it would be a cool unit, in that it would make your opponent think ahead and make choices on how to deal with it. Anytime you can distract your opponent, then you may be able to gain a tactical advantage.

[whiplash01]

What happens if a lightning ward or barrier ward attacked it.
Would it change into the ward?
I dont believe its a bad idea it just needs some tweaking.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by whiplash01
What happens if a lightning ward or barrier ward attacked it.
Would it change into the ward?
I dont believe its a bad idea it just needs some tweaking.

It would only morph if it has taken damage from a animate unit. So no, it would not morph into a lightning ward, and a barrier ward does not damage it, so it would apply.

I agree about the tweaking. The biggest factor to tweak here is hit points and initial armor. Those are the things that would affect the strategy a lot.

Thanks,
-Scipio-

[Xaos]

I think another aspect of this mechanic we have to take into consideration is if someone used their OWN unit to attack the doppleganger. That is the weakest part of this "shapeshifting" ability, it can be abused in several ways. The problem is that this unit will always be too strong or too weak, there is no real balance. I think one way to fix this would be to make the doppleleganger sort of like a shade. It would be the phantom of a human who had died, and thus could assume the form of only human units. Instead of having a unit hit it, it could just activate it's ability if it was adjacent to an opponent's human unit. However, there are still a lot of problems with this version and I just don't know how practical this unit would be to implement in TAO.

[Snork]

Bottle, you're assuming that only the worst possible situation will happen, nothing else.

You're living in a land of ifs. I'm in the land of now and it's called bling bling.

Remember, it goes by what you attack it with, it wouldn't count if the opponent attacked it themselves.
So you gotta be smart about it, pick your attack.

And also, so it keeps it's 30 armor from the stone golem when it becomes a 0 armor witch.
I can use the stonie I have to armor 4 units anyway.
That's not a disadvantage, it's the same thing I can do to any unit.
I can stone a knight now, that's not unfair, it's just the way it works.

It's strength lies in it's versitility. But the weakness is the opponent chooses that versitility.
And it doesn't have much life, it could be taken out.

But, it's all speculation anyway, and that's just the way I see it.

Mr. Dawg, I have no idea what you're talking about, please elaborate? :)

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Xaos
I think another aspect of this mechanic we have to take into consideration is if someone used their OWN unit to attack the doppleganger. That is the weakest part of this "shapeshifting" ability, it can be abused in several ways. The problem is that this unit will always be too strong or too weak, there is no real balance. I think one way to fix this would be to make the doppleleganger sort of like a shade. It would be the phantom of a human who had died, and thus could assume the form of only human units. Instead of having a unit hit it, it could just activate it's ability if it was adjacent to an opponent's human unit. However, there are still a lot of problems with this version and I just don't know how practical this unit would be to implement in TAO.

I dont think damage received from one of your own units should apply.

People always say that too many exceptions make the unit impossible to code, but I disagree. I program some myself, and stuff like this is not a big deal to do.

I think the balancing part is a matter of adjusting HP and initial armor. Those are the things which will ultimately decide how fast this unit will perish, regardless of what it becomes.

[Serge]

I was going to bring up the "attack your own doppleganger" issue, darn you person who did it first! You could stone it than attack it with a dragon. I give it two thumbs down, I also have nothing new to add to the argument other than three scouts would be way too powerful, attacking everyturn even when moving.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Serge
I was going to bring up the "attack your own doppleganger" issue, darn you person who did it first! You could stone it than attack it with a dragon. I give it two thumbs down, I also have nothing new to add to the argument other than three scouts would be way too powerful, attacking everyturn even when moving.

Damaging it with your own units wouldnt count. Also, I feel it should lose its "stone armor" after it morphs.

Three scouts would be very tough. Thats why you wouldnt want to attack it with a scout, unless you had absolutely no choice.

Remember that a Doppelganger retains it own hit points, even after it morphs.

[Snork]

Originally posted by Scipio
Also, I feel it should lose its "stone armor" after it morphs.

Remember that a Doppelganger retains it own hit points, even after it morphs.

Losing its armor is an interesting idea, but I feel it should keep its armor.
Just look at it like any other unit.
All it is is a unit that can be any unit you already have, but it keeps its original hp and is limited by the opponents actions.

You wouldn't think it's fair to have a pyro lose its armor after being hit, look at this the same way, it's a unit with the potential to become any unit, and should be considered that unit while transformed. And should play by the rules that all other units play by.

That's what i think anyway.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Snork
Losing its armor is an interesting idea, but I feel it should keep its armor.
Just look at it like any other unit.
All it is is a unit that can be any unit you already have, but it keeps its original hp and is limited by the opponents actions.

You wouldn't think it's fair to have a pyro lose its armor after being hit, look at this the same way, it's a unit with the potential to become any unit, and should be considered that unit while transformed. And should play by the rules that all other units play by.

That's what i think anyway.

I agree with you, its pretty solid logic. I just didnt feel like arguing it!