Strategy?

[kensai]

Strategy would seem to mean three things.
* unit selection: what is placed in the field and why
* formation: where everything goes
* gameplay: what you do after the bout starts.

In unit selection, the choices of a Grey are fairly limited, especially at first. With ten picks to make out of twelve, it is a better question to ask which two units are NOT included, and why.

In formation, there is really no strategy guide that I know of. Some strategic concepts are used - offensive/defensive, versatility, spread/focus, balance/corner, trap More often I see tactics in the form of rules of thumb (e.g. Cleric on the back row, Lightning Ward exactly four spaces in front of the Cleric, avoiding perfect bomb targets, not leaving solitary units out there to be needlessly killed) etc.

As for gameplay, some strategic concepts appear but mainly its tactics. Individual moves, rather than long-term plans consisting of several moves or even a plan to cover the entire bout.

It would be nice to hear how a highly skilled player designed his formation, and with what kind of a plan / what expectations in mind for the bout.

[kensai]

<this message to be deleted>

[Aro23r]

Take screenshots, or use the quote thing



For evenly spaced formations.

[kensai]

<this message to be deleted>

[roberta]

One problem I see is that you have an altogether one sided force, however you have let three of your units alone off to the side, and althought they are fast moving, they could be taken out, and if you barrier any of them, that would stop them from being healed, and would also allow for people to take out the cleric with a ranged unit forcing you to then barrier your cleric etc.
Another thing is that in your diagram you have it only four squares high, whereas the area for setting up is 5 squares high (this stops the witches instant kill on the cleric as the lightning ward blocks her range).
Other than that, I might like to give you a battle some day, see what the formation is like.

[abyaly]

first off, this is the shape of the board:

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[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

secondly, the corner is a good safe spot for a cleric


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[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[C][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]


third, while having a unit 5 spaces in front of the cleric is important, the lightning ward can be put to better defensive use here. the knight is sturdy enough to protect a cleric from witch burn.

[ ][K][K][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][L][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[C][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

[Mnrogar]

I often put the lward in that spot but it's in no way THAT much better than 4 spaces in front of the cleric. Having a knight instead of a lward 4 spaces in front of the cleric is hard to manage, it can be picked on repetedly by lwards and mages until it's dead or has to move to survive, at which point your oponent can have a witch ready to move in and kill your cleric.

[kensai]

Looks like there are agreements on two things, at least.

* the cleric is best on the bottom row
* something sturdy should be there to keep witchfire away.

This has generally been enough to keep the Cleric alive. On the times that the Cleric has been killed, the greatest threat has been the Scout - and sometimes, a Knight that has broken through the lines. Movement 3 and ability to march every turn (as long as the Knight does not attack) make it hard to stop. It is very hard to pummel the knight to death fast enough to save the Cleric, and the 24 hits plus 12 healing makes only 36; the Knight can still kill the Cleric in two blows. Or hack the Cleric once, after which the Cleric can be killed with a single arrow even if he heals himself - so running from the Knight is not an answer, either.

Of course, when playing a Gold, there are other major threats, such as the mud golem.. but then, it takes a more skilled player than me to defeat a competent Gold with a standard Grey army.

Thanks for pointing out that I had the map wrong. *blush* Nice catch, Roberta. This narrows the places for the Cleric to three - corner, side, or middle. Of these, the corner seems best if the piece blocking the attack is the Lightning Ward; two spaces from the closer edge of the board, it has a killzone three space wide, just enough to catch a pyro or knight trying to sneak by. Closer to the middle it can be bypassed safely along either edge, which of course need not be a problem, just something to look into.

The Knight (or a Gold unit) is sturdy enough for sure, but on the front row, the Knight is a bait for lightning. Barriers don't help against non-blockable attacks, and so far to the front, it is simply enough to flank the warrior. Using the Lightning Ward at the front is good because it can catch a spellslinger and wipe one out in a single shot. On the downside, competent players usually don't give such opportunities without a good reason, and both the Witch and the Pyro have a greater range than the Lightning Ward. The ability to kill them with one shot is almost useless if they stay out of range.

With the Witchburn problem to the Cleric seen to, the next problem is a Scout rush. I placed three units on the formation to prevent these. The Barrier in front of the Cleric prevents most near-frontal shots, as well as a Knight rush along the left-hand edge. The Knight and the Pyro make the remaining shots suicidal; to make one, the Scout has to stop inside the Lightning Ward area of effect and next to a Knight. It gets one shot off.. that is almost inevitable.. after which it is electricuted and burned or cut.

The rest of the units have been placed mainly in a chess knight pattern to minimise the effect of hostile mages. Certainly some may remain vulnerable, but the ones farther from the safer left-hand side are fast, relatively sturdy, and good blockers, while the more vulnerable units are kept in places that are harder to attack.

That as v1.1. The comments on the flaws of v1.0 were very welcome - I look forward to seing some on this as well, and hopefully also other starting formations by players far more experienced than I.

Some units remain far to the right, so that part of Roberta's advice remains to be heeded.

I wonder where they would be safer, and still effective?



[?] Enemy territory
... map corner
[L] Lightning Ward
[C] Cleric
[K] Knight
[E] Enchantress
[A] Assassin
[S] Scout
[P] Pyro
[B] Barrier Ward
[W] Witch

......[?][?][?][?][?]......
...[?][?][?][?][?][?][?]...
[?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]
[?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]
[?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]
[?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][L][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[K][ ][ ][ ][ ][K][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][P][ ][ ][ ][ ][A]
...[ ][B][ ][ ][ ][S][ ]...
......[C][E][T][ ][ ]......

[kensai]

The Lightning Ward arrangement shown earlier in this thread; I would worry about the leftmost column. The knight there can be flanked from outside the area of effect of the Lightning Ward. A Scout can also rush along the column to put an arrow into the Cleric without being getting electricuted for it. A good recovery time and reasonable blocking % make it likely enough that the Scout is not succesfully attacked immediately after making the attack. To stop the Scout requires 56 pts of damage (40 + 12 of healing after the first incoming). I wonder how to see to this..? By moving the leftmost knight to stand in the way of the Scout so that it can't get in? A defensive unit behind the first line of defenders - such as the Chanty?

[abyaly]

Originally posted by kensai
The Lightning Ward arrangement shown earlier in this thread; I would worry about the leftmost column. The knight there can be flanked from outside the area of effect of the Lightning Ward. A Scout can also rush along the column to put an arrow into the Cleric without being getting electricuted for it. A good recovery time and reasonable blocking % make it likely enough that the Scout is not succesfully attacked immediately after making the attack. To stop the Scout requires 56 pts of damage (40 + 12 of healing after the first incoming). I wonder how to see to this..? By moving the leftmost knight to stand in the way of the Scout so that it can't get in? A defensive unit behind the first line of defenders - such as the Chanty?
knight flanking and scout rushing arent an issue if you simply add 1 or 2 units to the area. those 2 units could be placed so that the scount cant get in. a bw placed there could close the gap, and it would be close enough to barrier the cleric.
an enchantres there would also work, but using the enchantress there AND using a corner strat wouldnt work well together.
a DMW placed in the corner can do enough damage to units thast come through the gap, too.

since i use a corner strat, i leave it open and trap the incoming scout and close it's line of fire to the cleric. 3 turns is enough time to do this. takes 2 if one unit is already in position to trap it.


[ ][K][K][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][P][A][L][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][W][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[C][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

suppose those are the units placed in the corner (just as an example)
the scout goes in and shoots the cleric


[ ][K][K][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][P][A][L][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[S][W][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[C][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]


the pyro moves to block the shot, and attacks


[ ][K][K][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][A][L][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[S][W][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[P][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[C][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]



the knight or assassin can then move in and attack after the opponent heals/moves


[ ][K][K][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[A][ ][ ][L][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[S][W][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
---[P][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
------[C][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]


the scout is trapped and cannot shoot the cleric. it will die in the near future.


PS - you still have the board dimensions wrong, man

[Bottle]

Originally posted by kensai
Barriers don't help against non-blockable attacks,

Not true. Barriers cannot be penetrated at all, which is very useful for both offense and defense. Offense wise, you can move a witch up to deal a lot of damage to a line of units, take one hit, barrier, wait three turns then attack again and retreat for healing; defensively it is excellent for protecting a cleric that is rushed by a knight or shot by a scout, until the threat has been removed, or even for a important, badly injured unit with recovery left such as the scout. And then of course there's it's great synergy with the enchantress in the late game when the enemy scout has been killed.

Sorry to rant on like this, but I really like the BW:D

[abyaly]

yeah, BWs are the shiznit! a few months ago i had a nifty formation with 2 BWs and 2 enchantresses. knight rush to take out ranged units, followed by mass paralysis allowed me to completely ignore the existance of an enemy cleric :).

note - the only thing a barrier does not block is paralysis. a paralyzed and barriered unit is still safe from attack, but it cant move either.

[Bottle]

I had a similar formation to that... you have to keep one damage unit in reserve to take out the cleric (usually a scout) or it's a draw. I used 2 chanties, 2 BW, LW, cleric, scout and 3 knights, but good players realised that they just had to defend their scout or a pyro to win, so I dumped it a while back.

Not many people realise how good BWs are, I know I didn't when I first started; "whats the point of that?" I said. I learnt better after playing one and an enchanty. Foolishly, I hung my scout to get his cleric... and I don't use pyros.:(