Strategy

[Tcbb]

I have been selfish not to advise anyone outside my clan about strategy.(I understood all LOS tricks on 12/5, but I kept it as a secrect. I remember that because it's the friday night before my finals). Now I see a need to help experienced players to mature in to lethal killers, so I will have more fun when I return. also, I am bored to death, so it's not a big waste of my life to write this. Excuse me if I don't explain things clearly.

Note: focused on turtle VS turle, sufficient math skill and LOS needed.

I) view blocking and armor as bonus to life.
1When turtle VS turlte, the luck element of blocking is minute. It will be easier to view it this way.My Way of Calculating real life and regeneration:
L=life, ar= armor, sb=side block. #m=number of mages, #a=number of attacker. H=healing
real life= L/(1-ar)/(1-sb(1-*#m/#a)). (#m/#a usually 0.4 close to 3/7).
regeneration: 12/(1-ar)/(1-sb(1-*#m/#a))
Here is what I get(real life/ regeneration)
Knight:___ 88/21
Knight(a)__146/35
Scout:____53/16
Scout(a):__79/23.5
Dragon:___93/16
Dragon(a)_140/25
golem:____60/12
golem(a)___86/17
furgon:____56/14
furgon(a)___80/20

2.How is real life and regeneration useful?
Real life will help you get a general idea of how vulnerable the units really are. So you can make a more precise decision which unit to take down first, and how much danger you should put your units into. regeneration will tell you how concentrate your attack should be. When your primary target is hard to hit, it's always good to hit a golem as a subsitute, since it's regeneration is very low. Understand this will help you understand the following points.

3)Breaking the focus of stone golem isn't very important after your opponent's cleric dies.
You need to do the math yourself, base on the situation to decide if it's worthy to risk your scout on the mission. Usually without the great regeneration, armored knight and Dragon are easy to kill. Once grey VS inexperienced gold. I sacrificed my scout to kill my oppoent's clerics. Then I killed all three of his armored knights and a dragon with my pyros.

4)Don't try to kill an armored knight, with the huge regeneration, you are doing 40 damage every 4 turns( one cleric). with real life 146, it will take more than 10 turns to kill it. During that time, his archer will tear you down.

5)Heal whenever possible.
With 2 exception:
-if you perceive your opponent is going to focus on an unwounded unit.
-your cleric is in danger, and may need to move.


6)furgons aren't innocent little creatures.
Just because killing it doesn't have immediate effect to the war isn't a reason not to kill it. place it to a higher position on your attack list. They are easy to kill from side, and only take 4 shots even get healed.

7)Dragons in armor aren't unkillable.
When both your opponent's dragon and archer are nearby, most player will prefer to aim at the archer. They think that they won't be able to kill the dragon in a few turns, and the dragon can always escape and heal. But remember this:
i) When a seriously wouded dragon escape to the behind, your front shot have 60% chance of hitting it, that's 1.5 as likely as hitting a scout.
ii) Dragons have similar regeneration as scout



II)You don't have to attack a target every turn.
Many players have the believe that if you don't attack something, you are wasting a turn. IT'S VERY WRONG.

i)Plancing your units in a strategical position is crucial for the game. For example, when two turtles are facing, take 1 turn or 2 to move your scout to the bottom line away from your opponent's base when you can spare the time. It will be a big threat to your opponent. I will talk more on how to place your unit Strategically.

ii)When your mud golem moves to a good position to shake, hold there and use your scout or other unist to force your opponent to heal before attacking. and you can attacking 2 times in 3 turns without your opponent's cleric's heal. Hopefully, your opponent's cleric will never have a chance to heal again.

iii)advance your dragon to a position that it can threaten cleric.

iv)end of game knight duel, go to your opponent's behind rather than risking a block.

v) attack a full healthy unit, which will immediately healed is a waste of turn.

III)How to position and use your units stategically.

i)Scout:
move both your scouts to positions that can move to positions to hit your opponent's cleric and stoney, then stay there. Don't leave unlesss seriously wounded. If one of them wounded, retreat and use the other to attack. Even if all LOS is blocked by units or shrub, just by staying there is a great threat to your opponent.
here are elements that will make the position more favorable.
out of reach of your enemy's knight: very prefered.
out of reach of your enemy's dragon: prefered.
hard to shoot from side: prefered.
can be barriered: prefered.

ii)Beast Raider:
The beast raider is the surprise attack force of your army. It's more vulnerable than scout, since it has to melee attack. use it when your opponent is focusing on killing your scout and his force is very spread out. Don't get down the bottom line easily. Since versatile is its greatest asset. It will bring chaos to an already chaotic situation.

iii)mud golem:
The mud golem is the ultimate spell breaker, but it's extremely vunerable, with low regeneration. Often, it could be taken down by scouts before it's put to good use. The key to use it is to protect it. Have a dragon in front of it so that any scout who dare to come near will be retaliated. Don't come near to knights and don't shake if cleric can heal easily. It should be acompanied by other units, and do what scouts can't accomplish.

iv)knight:
The knight is too slow for an attack force. It's path can be easily blocked, so it can't be use to hit vunerable units. It's greatest strength lies on it's defense. a knight is hard to kill, so you hardly need to move it around. Place it around the middle of the board to stop golem and scouts.

v)Furgon:
with mud golem's new attack, not many people use Furgon any more. In fact, furgon is still pretty powerful. It will provide you the valuable time to regroup your force. If you know that you can't kill mud golem before it strike again, you can shrub your frosty and use use your frosty on the mud golem.

IV)The dynamic of war
How to balance your attack and defense is hard to describe here, and varies from battle to battle.
One general advise: never go all defensive unless your opponent has lost both cleric and focus of stoney.

I will talk more about it when I feel like to.

[Tcbb]

I will post here if I remember something.

[Duffman]

wow thanks for the advice. I'm only a grey but some of the scout tips were very useful. I wish i had two scouts... *cries*

good luck on your finals.

P.S. as of a few weeks ago i am also a demonhunter so could you PM me the real stratedgy? lol :P

[Stiltz]

This is hands down the best strategy thread posted so far. Alot of these theories are what elevated me to the next level in this game, but keep updating because there's still quite a bit more to cover.

[wbwgr]

Tcbb...when are u coming back? And this was very helpful.

[BlackSyphon]

what stiltz said, I am now further enlightened in game concepts and can understand and comprehend certain strategies more easily, thx:)

du

[Stiltz]

Sticky Bump. This thread needs to be stickied.

[kyrios24]

Absolutely. That was some solid advice, tcbb... couldn't have done better meself. Sticky!

A couple things.
- You didn't post any mage strategies, and
- Try to come back soon... I've heard great things about your ability and I want to play you.:p

On those formulas, why do you have 3 levels in the fractions? Also, I assume you mean 100, rather than 1. (sorry about being picky, but I think people would understand what you're talking about better that way.)

Ugh, I feel so selfish, keeping my strategies to myself now. Props to you, tcbb.

[Goldberg]

Why this thread is left unstickied is like leaving a good piece of meat to rot.

Props to you, Tcbb, you the man!:D

[Tcbb]

Thanx guys for the support. I am now playing on random grey account. I might consider go gold again after my midterms or in the summer. I will write more when I remember more.

There is no mage strategy because I never use mages gold VS gold. I don't like the chance in them. That reminds me of some common sense that's really important: When you are winning, expect the worst; when you are losing bad, plan what can best happen!

[BlackSyphon]

I think I have an idea of what ur grey accont is... I heard some person named Best Grey on Banff killing most of my clanmates (netjak.com ppl) Other than another grey called amp123, you are a perfect candidate for him :D Tell me if I am wrong, but tell us, were you also once called doors of perception?I have heard great things about you too so I will always be inquisitive;) I never got to know you tho, nobody noticed me back then...:)

well, again good work:rolleyes: and tell us if you want to join netjak...

du

[Twelve]

Originally posted by BlackSyphon


well, again good work:rolleyes: and tell us if you want to join netjak...

du

I gave TCBB this offer a looooong time ago. Still hoping he says "yes" and graces us with his presence. :)

But we have to respect the fact that he has his own clan...the Demonhunter League!!

12

[Bottle]

This is the definitive strategy thread.

Sticky it now.

Although I think you could have said more about the mud golem and furgon. If you use a furgon, once the muddie is dead, you have almost won (unless your cleric/frosty is dead or you have no damaging units left).

[Tcbb]

I do have a lot to say about Furgon, formation, and examples of war dynamics. But it's hard to discible without pictures. When I go gold...

[BlackSyphon]

ur gonna go gold again! yay, Tccb might finally be coming back!

du:D

[bludhoundz]

I agree with this strategy usage mostly (a few disputes), but i strongly think that this is some of the best advice ever, but one thing, the best teacher is experience, so don't just read the forums, go out and play the game to get better!:D :D :D

[Noda]

dude, thats awsome. its a really good strategy with alot of info. mabey this thread could become a place were good players(like twelve and bottle) can talk about these different units strategies

heres just the posts on enchanties i made in different places


i wouldnt use her until u figure out the game, but when u do(besides looking as the other enchantress threads) theirs alot of thigs you can do with her, all of which make her the m.v.p of the grey, every grey uses three knights, and if u put an enchantress against 3 knights(especailly with a ward) the enchanty will win. heres allitle hint(which for some reason i never see anybody do, if u decide to make a passive-aggresive strat with the enchantres ass the main peep and making her offensive make sure u put her in the middle of two people(knights) and one back,this allows u to charge forward with her without freezing the knights, it allows the knights to block of the path to the enchanty, and it makes a trap for any assasin(which seems to happen every game) from coming in the middle of the three(since u simply go back two and u have an awsome wall for urself

yeah dude, the enchanty ward is, in my thought, the best grey setup their is especaily without drops. their are two ways to use that strat. one is to go heavy offensive*i would say mabey use magic but i dont do this* and hide ur enchanty in the back, then use everything uve got to kill scouts and mage people

the other way is a more offensive use of the enchanty and with this the problem is being able to keep focus that one turn inbetween paralyzing and barrierwarding. this is a sick strat though becouse it allows u to not need to sacrafice units and also it makes it so knights have a harder time getting to the back of the formation. (for this i use no magic units and i kil units as their frozen since they cant block)

its a pretty hard strat but ive never lost(with that strat) to any grey except people who also had the same kindof strat(they both did a double which strat) but one was real close and the other person i had beaten before

also make sure u learn the scout los becouse then u can use knights to cover up the enchanty without freezing the knight(which isnt that bad)


hehe its real sparatic(since thye were both answering questions), but i kindof have a bad case of laziness

peace

[Longshooter]

This info was very helpful to me.

[kensai]

Likewise. The idea of a a V pattern with blockers at the front and the Chanty at the middle sounds very good. As an added thought, the Chanty needs to be at most three spaces from the Barrier, so that no matter whether she retreats, charges to the front, or charges to the side, she can be protected.

So far, I've kept the Enchantress on the bottom row as a part of the defense near the Cleric. With no blocking, she tends to be amongst the favorite targets of Scouts. Far from the front lines she's relatively safe, and highly capable at freezing units that try to enter my corner position from the side. While it has worked fairly well, this has kept the Chanty a passive unit until the endgame, and at times made it necessary to paralyze friendly units.

[kensai]

As a variant to the V pattern, something to consider might be to use the edge of the arena as one prong of the pattern. This would place the Chanty at the middle space along a side of the arena, with a blocker at the front row position. Especially after the one-step retreat the Chanty should be fairly safe, and her area of effect won't freeze friendly units. If the unit supporting her is a Lightning Ward, the Chanty can be effectively touched only by a Scout, and it is perilous to hit her even with arrows after she retreats one step.

[Demon night]

very good stragetys and the scout tips helped me out

[Office_Shredder]

This isn't the definitive strategy guide bottle... it only covers turtles vs. turtles.

As a lot of players can tell you, the stonie vs. stonie matchup is dying... now the turtle is only about as popular as any other setup

But this is the definitive strategy guide for turtle vs. turtle, yes.

[BlackSyphon]

noda, when I played you I found your chanty to be rather front wise but not used offensively, I wondered how you would use it later...

du

[Cuathon]

the turtle should be dying out. we need more variety in the game.
i still use turtle though but its fun to fight flankers, bombs, melle rushes and other things. had a great game with eindeg-dein and won with my turlte with 6 units left. i havent played Tao much lately so i felt quite proud of myself.
anyway we need like a big compilation of strategy like the legends one on the fansite. its always fun to get insights from better players or just people that play didfferently and understand different parts better thatn me

[grigri9]

I think this should be stickied by snarr or anyone else for that matter.

[cheeseman]

I agree with the ^ person. It should definitely be stickied.

I think I'm a little better player now that I've read this thread.:p

4 cheesesticks for you, Tcbb!:D

[Noda]

i jsut dont want to loose this thread

[ashley/hulky]

::bump::

[zzzaacckk]

For all those wise enough to harness the power of this unbelivabe strategy page(one of the holy grails of strategy) you will find this most usefull. If you cannot well I have nothing more to say to you. Now that many players rush there is less strategy involved in the game as opposed to the good gold turtle days. This post was made by a great man and probably in the top 3 if not the BEST player that ever played this game. For that he must be honoured in history week. TCBB this ones for you. A great player friend and strategist.

[sooner4life]

is it just me or is the very first post with the stradegies blank? :confused:

[Frank]

is it just me or is the very first post with the stradegies blank? :confused:
Haha n00b!!!111eleven

jk, highlight the message.

[zzzaacckk]

As I said you must be able to harness the power....I still want this thread to be sticked if possible pleeeeeease????????

[BlackSyphon]

finally had a game with the kid, and a crucial block went his way! A very good game, hes got skills, and my knights are on crack! now...whens the furgy tutorial coming...

du

[zzzaacckk]

THANK YOU whichever mod stickied this it is a truly great thread and deserves it.

[imagination]

i just read it ... i dont fully understand the calculator part but i have a rough understanding because of experience (someone said it and ill say it again, dont just read guides. you have to go out there and figure it out yourself). i have a few things i disaggree somewhat with but probably because i dont turtle as much. this IS THE BEST overall guide. ive always had a problem with the great turtlers because thats one of the stratagies i couldnt figure out fully (this would have helped alot if it had come out 5 months ago). tcbb you are now one of my heros

[Noda]

hehe this was around a few months ago

[BlackSyphon]

nah, longer, maybe even a year, and it is still valid :)

du

[moosemonkey73]

someoen just killed me with that stupid assasin trick, how do u do that

[zzzaacckk]

get your assasin below 5 health (4-1) and go into attack mode and hold down the space the assasin is on for 2 seconds. The assasin will kill all units surrounding it other than barriered units and will self destruct as well.

[Spit_101]

*Date bump*

Back when I was newer to the game. This strategy helped me a lot. And I can't say anything but thanks for the help.

[gryph89]

*clapping hands*
no but seriously , great dam job , that calulater with the life regenerationg thing helped me , I ended up winning a couple of turtle games knowing that.
Y ou definatly know what you are talking about , I would (and I know everyone else will) like to see more strat by you.

[Terps rock]

what is #m/#a i know what its says but can someone explain or finish the list

[sb1fan]

uhh what do u mean?

[zzzaacckk]

this is an old post that i brought back because it gives a good view of strategy... it teaches a way of thinking that is important. if you can think that way then you can finnish it yourself.. and add the wisp and GA.

[Tcbb...]

Thanx a lot to every one who suppoted this thread, brought it back, and sticked it. I really hope you can benefit from this thread, and I feel a little guilty that I never got to finish the second part of this thread. The fact is that the last time I came back as a gold, I totally forgot about this thread and only played for fun. Sorry about that.

If I ever get my touch back and have time, I will try to write more. I really love this community, and want to help out. I didn't really realized this until my Diablo2 character got killed in a game named, "please no PK". Just how low was that! I really loved my character, and didn't trust people there any more.

And to whoever have the power, please unblack it. When I left, I just wanted to destroy all evidence of my existance and be forgotton. That's why my major threads and posts and all black. Appartantly, this wish isn't fulfilled, so just make it the way before.

[zzzaacckk]

TCBB!!!!! Come back dude I want a few games...

[sir robq]

Hey im a newb so I need to know, how do you do the assassin trick?

[zzzaacckk]

get the assain to 4 health or below and when in "attack mode" homd down the mouse button on the assasin for 3 seconds.

[speaker4thedead]

I really dont see the point in the assassin thing. they only made the assassin bomb cos its the only thing that can give grey's a chance of kepping up with us golds.

well it aint worked MODS!! :dry: :cool: :p

[zzzaacckk]

What are you talking about that is totally random and it was to make the assain useful again...

you also might wanna fix your signature... you used the link to the thumbnail and not the real thing.

[Hoolwath]

I think it has always been useful. Now, its very useful and i wouldnt change it for a DMW.

Back to tcbb.... Great strat. It sure helps golds. Nice piece of work.

[zzzaacckk]

:( Who made his post in white? please change it back. I know it is not more easily read but if you arent smart enough to read it you arent smart enough to use it... this is a sad day...

EDIT: Xe.. please change it back :(

[imagination]

man i just reread this for a refresher... i had forgot a couple points. always good to have a refresher. oh yes mods ... please change it back to the way it was, it gave it like an illusive super strategy type of feel.

[Death Puppet]

why is this not stickied yet?

[Office_Shredder]

Umm.... it is

[BlackSyphon]

hahahaha...LMAO....

maybe the glue is wearing out...I guess the post it note buisiness prevails!

du

[MokoToko]

:( Who made his post in white? please change it back. I know it is not more easily read but if you arent smart enough to read it you arent smart enough to use it... this is a sad day...

EDIT: Xe.. please change it back :(
Tcbb wants it white again, look at his post

[Levi Gustavo]

:*dwarf: :butcher:
tactics is to be able to have great friends!




http://www.amoreterno.blogger.com.br/samurai_x_foto_tm_9.jpg

[imagination]

holy crap that was the necro of the century!!!

[zzzaacckk]

its a good necro but cut down that banner please... and its not like the thread was bumped... i got it stickied so people would read it. if you want the necro of the century ill pull up one of the earliest posts if you want :)

[imagination]

i meant necro of the century as like the most random thing ... not for the oldest

[Bottle]

That's not his banner. He has no banner.

[The Hand]

i need a new banner. As you can see im no longer a part of Jokers Wild.

[Stolanis]

I am a complete noob here, so if anyone can give me any pointers, I would be much obliged.

Thanx.

[kerrgtz3]

Muddy+wisp= pwr pwnage.

[zzzaacckk]

there are lots of great strategy threads. just search for them. there are lots of good unit FAQs mine included but not only mine. I would recomend reading bottle's "better strategy guide" thread.

[The Coder]

it isn't a bad guide. Ill check out the one you advised, zzzaacck. but this is a useful guide. Here Is the link to the guide zzzaacckk is talking about
Bottle's Guide (http://tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13311)
Though, The assassin's bomb ability has gotten me a draw in 3 games... there is something like 30 turns without combat and its a draw. I go
pyro - heal - lw - heal
and if they attack with assassin, scout, or knight, I can use the bomb. so they just don't attack, I use it in a threatening way, and they eventually don't do anything. though I haven't played any golds or really good greys to verify this

[DOCTOR DEVICE]

This is the original strategy guide, therefore the best :cool:

[Rock Hard]

This Realy Helped Me Thanks

[tazville1]

i have to agree with stilts this is hands down the most advice ive ever gotten within 10 minutes.i just wonder how u figrued it all out?:huh:

[Reverie]

i thought only one scout is allowed per army?

[zzzaacckk]

on legends. their forums are: www.legendsforums.com

this is a different server.

[maniac123]

i need a stategy that will help me win. one thats really good:)

[The Coder]

Develope your own strat/playstyle. this has the basics, but you'll have to learn the rest on your own.

[maniac123]

what do u mean?

[13яєαк-12]

I need a really good strat.....cause i suck bad

[steve12]

I need a really good strat.....cause i suck bad

Your banner is too large.

[C4nt t0uch th1s]

Don't you people know how to read thread dates..;)

[MicSpor]

No.

[C4nt t0uch th1s]

No.

Haha.. You made me laugh right there, I'm sure you know how to read the dates mic.:)

[BlackSyphon]

if this thread cannot help you... no strategy guide can. This thing has far more to offer than just was is written. TCBB does a good job at implication too.

du

[steve12]

It's a great guide, but there is no need to bump it. It IS kind of old compared to the knowledge and strategies we have today. I think that the regeneration rates are the best part of this guide, but overall, it's not the best guide I've seen during my time here. It WAS useful though.

[ShotCaller]

Tcbb, thanks for the detailed post. It was quite exhaustive and fairly thurough. Thanks for all your hard work preparing it. Too bad you can submit for extra credit to your teacher.

[manonfire101]

Thnx, for the post. I found it very useful, especially for turt games.

[Wastl]

i found this post not long ago. it might be quite dated already, however i only started to play TAO a few weeks ago and it helped me a lot. i got interested in tcbb's calculation and tried to improve it. the reason was this: when there were no more mages, the wards had suddenly a division by zero, which means, their lives skyrocketed to the infinite, which is not quite true if you consider that u can paralyze a ward and reduce its lifepoints. also the number of attackers influenced the real life in the opposite way: the more attackers there were, the higher were the calculated lifepoints. that didn't seem right.

basically it is a lot of guesswork. i would appreciate if u could do some calculations with the formula and comment on it if it makes sense or not:

#a: number of attackers
#m: number of mages
#p: number of pieces (of just one party - i believe it makes sense to put in either your own or the opponents number of pieces, both times the results point in the right direction)
L: actual life points
sb: side block
ar: armor

real life = ((#p/13 - (#a-#p)/#p)*(L/(1-ar))*((1+sb)*((#a-#m)/#a))

some explanation:
the central part is L/(1-ar) which is about as straightforward as it can get: if you multiply by a number between 0 and 1 the result will get smaller, if you divide by a number between 0 and 1, the result will get more, which is quite obvious. in this case u divide the actual lifepoints by 1-ar, ar being the armor. the higher the armor (0,25 for the knights for instance) the smaller will be 1-ar. if the armor is 0, then 1-0 will be still 1 and your lifepoints divided by 1 will remain the same. i guess this is quite obvious, so i skip more explanation.
the next part in tcbb's calculation was that he divided the L/(1-ar) by (1-sb*(1-#m/#a)). the reasoning is really beautiful, if u appreciate math: if all your attackers are mages, then your blocking ability is worth nothing, so the division by 1 leaves your lifepoints unchanged. but what if there are NO mages? here started the problem: if you have 0 mages and blocking is 1, then you divide by 0, which only makes sense if the pieces in question (the wards are the only pieces with blocking equal to 1) cannot be hit anymore, which they can, as long u have a frosty or a chanty. so instead of dividing the calculated blocking and its relation to attackers to mages i decided to multiply the blocking. the trick was to add a little 1 to the whole thing. if the number of attackers equals the number of mages, then #a-#m will be 0 and sb*0 will be 0, leaving the 1 to multiply with your lifepoints or leaving these lifepoints untouched. if there are less mages than attackers your blocking ability kicks into action and the real lifepoints get higher. i checked the formula and got more or less the same results as did tcbb, also if u add the additional 0,3 armor coming from the stone golem.
finally i wanted to find out if there is a way to appreciate the actual number of pieces compared to the number of attackers and how this influences the real lifepoints. here i did a lot of guesswork, as you can see with the number 13 in the denominator. this is were u guys could help: are the results making sense?

i agree that this bloody calculation doesn't help u much when u are facing a skilled opponent, but it kind of gives u a feeling how the value of your pieces changes considering the opponent u face (a guy with 2 frosties and 2 cleriks and maybe even a ward or a furgon has only 5 or 6 attackers left, which changes the real life your pieces are having. and that's probably all this calculation is worth. when i first found tcbb's calculation it helped me quite a bit because i realized that many pieces on the field are not quite what they appear to be. his explanations also helped a lot. my intention is to improve his formula and discuss with u how the math can maybe even made more precise. at the moment the formula is quite crude: the different regeneration times are not at all taken into consideration, to name just one.

[mantis33]

I have never read this before today, but... why is this stickied? No offense... but it isn't even good.

[imagination]

I have never read this before today, but... why is this stickied? No offense... but it isn't even good.

its the best thing out there.