Propose changes in game and strategy

[Tcbb]

This should be in suggestion, but I guess it's more about strategy, gold VS gold strtegy.

What is a strategy? A way to conduct a battle. The game system is designed so that strategies are very limited. There are basically 2 ways to conduct a battle. One is putting everying in the front and rush, which include mage bombing. Second is turtle, which is basically a contest of archery.

We need much more strategy, and strategy that requires team work. That can be done through a bit of twisting of the original units.

Scout: power =12
Why: Scout is way over powered. reducing it's power can ensure that pyros and enchtress could be used and as offensive units.

Dragon: power = 26
Why: Dragon is another over powered unit. And I found it rediculous to be able to kill a DMW in one hit. Also, now it cann't kill a scout in 2 hits.

Mud golem: earth quake recover=4
Why: Now archer weaker, muddie can go near the enemy without losing much health. It's earth quake should only be used as an last resolt to break the enemy defense. Also, it not nessary die after the shake. If you plan your attack carefully, after shrubs gone, your BR, Dragon, archer rush in, forcing your opponet wasting turns protecting cleric and Stoney.

Assissin: movement +1
Why: assassin being more agile, and have more chance to hit more than 2 targets.

Beast Raider: damage =17
Why: Beast Raider is a better spell breaker than Assissin. It has more chance of hitting 2 units. So it should be weaker. A Beast Raider, archer combo can't kill a Pyro, but can kill a DMW.

Pyros: power =18(12) The 4 squares around the central hit be 2/3 of the max power. Can at most get 9 bonus from DSM, and become 27(18).
Why: 1. avoid the negative effect of pyro rush. Now pyros will have hard time killing a lighting ward.
2. pyros could be used as an breaker of bushes.
3. a bunch of pyros without knights protecting it will become easy victim of an enemy knight
4. increasing the central power will make it more effective against knight rush.

cleric: power = 10
Why: with all this changes, battle will tend to be longer, with shrub war much valued. If healing power remain the same, it will take too long to kill an unit.

Last: 12 units on field. With more units, team work is more valued. many more units can be put to defense. So killing a cleric will be harder. Instead, players would go for the weakest units on field.

[BlackSyphon]

sounds like you should make ur own game. You have the basic down, and I am sure you are capable of it. I see your issues on unit power balance but it can get fustrating too. Like, a scout only does 14 dmg to a knight, with 12 atk, thats soo much less.the system of armoring is also balancing, as if you armor a pyro or DMW, neither can die in one hit. While the muddy is what I believe to be slightly over powered now, itsonly downfall is its lack in blocking. Current strtegies are to take a cleric, muddy (full hp) and drice right in for a quick quake, even LWs and Dragons can't kill it in the three turns it can't move.

well, just SOME input, you are better off with other ppl's opinions...

du:)

[Cuathon]

well the dragon thing is BS.

unless you lower it more and make it 1 unit. the best thing about the drag is its attack. big damage in one turn if it dropped then it would lose its best move. witch smashing. thee reason its 2 is it has a lot of hp and it does huge damage. otherwise id be bettwr off with the 2 units. and the scout and dragon scout kill is integral. like the 5th most important move in the game.


the scout thing.

with less power it would be less valuble. especially for grey. i use it to pick of units for my chanty so it cant be torched by mages. all
the scout could do is break focus. same for the beast thats all theyd be good for. the beast is already hard enough to use effetively.

the golem.

the double recover, no. is like mage blaster number one. i want at least 2 or 3 good hits from a unit.


the assassin,

thing is good for my chantie form and wont be 2 bad. but it doesnt make up for the scout loss of 6 power. scout/knight assassin kill is very important


the pyro.

no. the pyro is like another mage smasher. and if we chgange it no 2 hit kill on wittches and pyros. the lower form dsm bonus would give you an extra cleric smasher.


the cleric.

i guess this would go well with the lower powers but the fact that you need to do the power lower (which wont happen) makes it impossible. i dont want to even want get into what the cleric power drop does.


More Units.

Now heres something i can relate to. if none of your other ideas happen this one should.

[Tcbb]

Thanx for the input.

First of all, archers shouldn't be designed for shooting knights, but could be used to finish them off. It's already a great spell breaker. And it's very hard to kill becuase of it's high blocking, high movement and it doesn't need to putit self in much of danger.

Dragon now can roam freely in the battle field, picking out week units, and can escape knights, because of it's high mobility. It should be used in team work. My philosophy of war is that a comination of different units give the best effect.

The dragon-archer combo is the only thing gold use as attack. We need to make it less useful and make other strategy more useful. Cuathon, you don't understand the purpose of my idea. Its to make the game more variable, with different ways to achieve the goal of winning. It's to change the game as we know it. And some of your points doesn't make much sense to me.

Second, all successful games, like starcraft or others, twist their unit's status once in a while to balance. Why not TAO?

We tend to believe Seed to be a genius. I agree that the stoney and furgon are really build with much insight. But that doesn't mean his design is perfect. I believe he hasn't play his game as much as we do, or play with all kinds of player, and he certainly don't know the effect of double archer here.

Seed made mistakes and corrected them before. Scout was on the unit drop in Legends a long time ago. multiply mud golem could do earthquake together, and Dragon's damage was 27.

My idea is just more radical.

[Shadowfury333]

2 q's:

1. How does one do a muddy quake?

2. What and when was Legends?

[Bottle]

I agree with you on one count, tcbb; the mud quake is currently too overpowered. It deals far more damage than a pyro does (w/o DSM), has a larger area for breaking shrubs/focus, has more HP and movement for getting out after moving in, and yet has 1 less recovery. Why is this fair? I also get very annoyed at people just moving in their stoned muddy, using 2 clerics, and quake-heal-quake-heal-quake. It does far too much damage to a turtle once the stone is broken, and damage dealt can't be healed fast enough. Indeed, when I see a form with pyros and muddy in, i torch the muddy first unless my cleric is in danger, because it can do more damage than the pyro in the long run. So my solution to that is, increase recovery for quake to 3. 3 should be enough, and it would stop people from just rushing in with their stoned muddie thinking that they can get away easily.

All your other ideas involve doing less damage, healing less, etc. All this will do is prolong the game, as a whole. Each individual idea you had is interesting, and I can see your reasoning behind it, but all it will do is make games which can already last an hour go on for even longer. And grey strats would have to be ENTIRELY rethought, because the scout is the pivotal piece for them for getting mages and that, but this would render it more of a finishing-off unit, thus meaning the only real way to do damage would be to charge in with knights and hope for the best.

Every number on the game has been carefully thought about. It is designed to be played this way. Yes, it means only 2 real strategies, but your method may well end up with only one strategy that works, an all-out rush. I use 4 attack units in my turtle; one now cannot kill a witch in one turn, two others can deal damage that can be healed back to almost full immediately, and another has 4 recovery for it's only really useful move. My strategy would die. So would many others. Look at what you've said again, and think about how it would affect all the different strategies in the game.

[Tcbb]

Originally posted by Bottle
Every number on the game has been carefully thought about.

There were a couple days in legends when muddy completely rule. Many players put 5 muddies in the front line, and every turn is a muddy earthquake. I don't think seeds design is perpect.

Originally posted by Bottle
your method may well end up with only one strategy that works, an all-out rush.

No, it won't. There will be twelve units, which means more units for the defense; the two area effect units' power are reduced; a single unit advancing means guarnetteed death. Also, more unit means more units not covered by stoeny. New stragety will involve picking out the weekest unit, instead of only hunting for the cleric and breaking stoney focus.

Originally posted by Bottle
My strategy would die. So would many others. Look at what you've said again, and think about how it would affect all the different strategies in the game.

I know, why should everyone stone the same 4 units? Why not they use assassin, dragon, knight and a pyro for attack? Why should archer be the central for all strategy?

I don't see why archer should be a all-around unit. It is used to break focus; hunt cleri, stop golems, finish off units. And it doesn't even put itself into much danger through all this. Its damage is decent, and it has much more chance to hit a unit from behind or side.

muddy will be weeker, but still a very valuable unit. It has very high mobility; it can move to where knights can't reach, and avoid much damage. With archer's power diminish, muddy has better chance to survive longer.

pyros and DMW can move more freely across the board, and be used to break spell and shrubs. However, they need to be behind knights, which is team work. Suppose a powered up pyro(27/18) is hit by an assassin, the other pryos can't deal 27 damage to the assassin, because they willl hurt their own pyro too.

Game will be much longer for sure, with focus on breaking shrub and building shrub. But everyone knows that a longer game always requires more strategy than a shorter game.

Currently, I don't have any strategy for my idea, all I can forsee is that an attack team has to work together to achieve its goal. The battle will be much complicated, at each turn a player will have more options and have to think more.

Thanx again for the input.

[Shadowfury333]

Originally posted by Shadowfury333
2 q's:

1. How does one do a muddy quake?

2. What and when was Legends?

I would just like to remind people that these are serious questions.

[Tcbb]

And this is a serious strategy forum. Go to newbie board to ask questions.

[Cuathon]

you named 2 strategies as the only real ones. how ever there are a few more. spread that waits for units to come in and closes on them. a flanking strat with units that make good targets in the middle and scouts and other quick units on the side.

and as for all the things i said in my last post i just like to present a pretty opposite arguement so we cna have a better discussion.

also this will damage focus units. sinc ethe powers are reduced and the hp stays the same its much harder to kill scouts. chanty stonie frostie will have a harder time because the scouts will hit more. same for the muddy and the beasty. same hp less damage longer time before death

[Bottle]

Well, I would agree that the scout is one of the most powerful units on the game. But 12 power just isn't reasonable. In fact, making it only 17 would immediately stop it from being a cleric hunter, as it would need 3 shots with a healing. Yes, it's a good focus breaker and can finish off units. But so is a pyromancer, or indeed a witch or something if used correctly. A ranged unit is vital to the game, and why should it not be used the most? One unit has to be. You'll never perfectly balance all the units. Seed has done a pretty good job of that already, and I see no reason to go messing with something that isn't broken.

[*The Nothing*]

I like the idea of twelve units on the field! I think the battles right now, are too short, and consist of little strategy, unless of course both players are turtling. :)

[Tcbb]

As I said before, people tend to think that seed and this game are perfect. But they aren't. We all assume that the strategy, the archer, should be what it is and stay what it is. But changes do happen, for 3 months muddies was without earthquake, was that a perfect design?

In the game now, does any gold use pyros to break spells? Never, they are so surpressed by scouts that they can only be used as mage-bomb.

I considered about the changes for more than one week before I put it down. And as I said, seed can't find many people to play with him when he produce this game, so how could he know all the strategy?

A demo will show help you understand, wait for it to come out!

[Jeffery]

No game is perfect. But there is a difference between tweaking a game, and making major changes to most of its units, and hence the entire strategies behind playing.

[Tcbb]

The only significant change is that archer's power is reduced by 1/3.

Consider the following situation, which happens all the time:
After an archer hit your pyro, would you heal or not? If not, he will probably die the next turn. If yes, it's a waste of turn. It is just not right for a long range unit to be able to kill many kinds of units in 2 turns, without putting itself into danger.

[Omegus]

Originally posted by Bottle
I agree with you on one count, tcbb; the mud quake is currently too overpowered. It deals far more damage than a pyro does (w/o DSM), has a larger area for breaking shrubs/focus, has more HP and movement for getting out after moving in, and yet has 1 less recovery. Why is this fair? I also get very annoyed at people just moving in their stoned muddy, using 2 clerics, and quake-heal-quake-heal-quake. It does far too much damage to a turtle once the stone is broken, and damage dealt can't be healed fast enough. Indeed, when I see a form with pyros and muddy in, i torch the muddy first unless my cleric is in danger, because it can do more damage than the pyro in the long run. So my solution to that is, increase recovery for quake to 3. 3 should be enough, and it would stop people from just rushing in with their stoned muddie thinking that they can get away easily.

All your other ideas involve doing less damage, healing less, etc. All this will do is prolong the game, as a whole. Each individual idea you had is interesting, and I can see your reasoning behind it, but all it will do is make games which can already last an hour go on for even longer. And grey strats would have to be ENTIRELY rethought, because the scout is the pivotal piece for them for getting mages and that, but this would render it more of a finishing-off unit, thus meaning the only real way to do damage would be to charge in with knights and hope for the best.

Every number on the game has been carefully thought about. It is designed to be played this way. Yes, it means only 2 real strategies, but your method may well end up with only one strategy that works, an all-out rush. I use 4 attack units in my turtle; one now cannot kill a witch in one turn, two others can deal damage that can be healed back to almost full immediately, and another has 4 recovery for it's only really useful move. My strategy would die. So would many others. Look at what you've said again, and think about how it would affect all the different strategies in the game.

The only reason seed added a muddy was because people weer complaian that furgon was overpowered...thus we have the mud-quake...but hey...iots not like people use furgon:D

[HeMightBeNeo]

yeah only D-turtles use the furgon.

tcbb? whyd you put this in general strategy? so you could torutre us poor greys with having more fun units?

*cries at gold to grey abuse. and that nobody cares*

[Bottle]

Originally posted by HeMightBeNeo
yeah only D-turtles use the furgon.

Nope. Mine is an attack turtle, yet uses the furgon. I only go defensive if I lose one of my units, and kill the muddy.

Originally posted by HeMightBeNeo
tcbb? whyd you put this in general strategy? so you could torutre us poor greys with having more fun units?

*cries at gold to grey abuse. and that nobody cares*

Because he was talking about a change to grey units as well.

[Tcbb]

Originally posted by HeMightBeNeo
so you could torutre us poor greys with having more fun units?


You just realized that you are being surpressed?

And also, Furgon can be use together with attack force.

[HeMightBeNeo]

i just started playing. of course i just figured it out. i started yesterday