Overview of all units...

[darkdelirium]

Essentially my views on all the units and some rather nice things to realize about them all. I'm starting out with the boring "duh" kinda things, and ending with the more controversials... enchantresses good? Archer versus Assassin? Pyro's suck?

Let's start with the Cleric.

Yeah yeah we're all of two sides. Ultimate, versus not. He's useful... gotta give it up to that. But I've played (and won) games where I've used him only twice. I question every now and then whether I should replace 'em with a dark magi witch. 12 points to everyone is nice, especially if you can get your opponent to not focus on killing one unit, but on spreading the damage around. Thats the trick to maximizing the potential of this guy, everyone favorit anti pyro. I'd include, and give him a 4 out of 5 bonus. My parting tip... don't move this guy around. Ever. 3 turn delay if unmoved (in case your wondering the formula its half normal delay rounded up for attacks without move. 5/2=2.5+.5=3).

The Dark Magi.
Highest damage potential in the game, and in much more useful form. Beats the pyro... 20 damage spread over 4 squares=80, 15 over 5=75 (okay okay, factor in the delay and pyro wins, but they all die in two hits so factoring in the delay is not that much of an option). So Dark Magi > Pyro... replace 'em across the boards everyone! Kills the cleric in a hit, great kamikaze for that. My favorite anti noob tactic. Keep 'em in there and keep 'em a threat.

The Fighter
Brute force, great block... send 'em against the other non magic units and watch sparks fly... he wins every time. Exception... assassin. He gets attacked from rear every time in a 1v1 battle with assassin, and couple that math with the assassins 40% block from sides and assassin gets a kill first. (im not actually running this math... dispute if you will). Great against the mage's too but ya gotta be careful. You need your fighters to be greater than his by the end of the day. My tip... remember, if you only move him you get to go again next turn. If you get attacked by a fighter first strike, the math works out to a you'll win sort of way if you move once, let his delay on fighter waste itself, then move and attack to get a free attack from rear. Only do this if he missed his first attack on your fighter though.

NOW... The fun stuff.

Enchantresses...
Majority opinion... they suck. My gospel truth? Yes, but not by as much as you'd think. Enchantress advocates go "she's deadly in the right situations!" Note the fact all of these situations happen in fights against noobs... enchantresses ability is nulled by those with realization, we're not gonna move into her squares to attack her if she's fully recovered. Unless theres an assassin we get to move the turn after too. So, chuck her for better damage potential, i recommend a frost golem (yay gold accounts) or any of the units at the very top, they always win. Or any other unit, she comes out just a little bit lower than everythin else... if you chuck her your con is against noobs with good luck and you have bad, you will lose. Your pro, against people with skill you will be more effective. Just think of how often you get to use her against anyone who doesnt make a bad mistake in regards to her.

Assassins versus Scouts versus Pyro's.
*everyone draws back as I include the dreaded "I suck im a pyro" in this topic*
Pros Assassins... Movement. Like crazy. Attack very useful in right situations. Only unit that with all math factored in and probability being even probability not the "dice gods hate you" probability, that will win a 1v1 with a fighter (always attack from behind, movement allows this on any knight that just attacked you. Knight will always have to attack you from the sides, you with a (edit to change 40% to 35%)35% block rate. You always deal damage, he doesnt.... do the math, you JUST BARELY do 50 damage before he deals 35.) Cons assassin... sometimes smart people will use your attack against you. Never hit your own units... its worth it just to move, then move attack rather than hit your own. Watch the delay on his cleric though if you elect to do this.

THE MATH FULLY RUN
Assassin does 17 damage to knight. Knight does 19 to assassin. Assassin, 35 health, and yes, 35% block to sides. Knight has 50 health and block doesnt matter because he gets flanked every attack. According to probability, knight should hit once, miss once, and hit for kill. Assassin should hit every time... so...

First round. Knight attacks, assassin is down to 16 health. Assassin attacks knight, knights down to 33 health.

Second round... knight attacks assassin and misses. Assassin attacks knight and gets him down to 16 health.

Third round, knight attacks assassin and assassin dies before he can attack.

But wait... what happens if assassin attacks first... it gets a killing blow before knight! So guess what... knight=assassin in 1v1, the first blow rules. But only if probability is playing truly random, 1 hit then one miss as probability states it should be.
Note this information is included in a post below this

Pros Scout...
Now, we got some great movement, a good attack with GREAT range, and some horrible delay for what he is. that makes me sad people... Such potential. I could say he's good for cleric killing, but when your using a scout to hit cleric you definitely dont have anyone in range to make another attack on cleric for the kill. Could say he's good for mage killing but scout only hits one unit. He loses... basically. Great range.... I would say hes good for breaking enchantress concentration. Then again, you shouldnt be playing with enchantresses by now.

Pros Pyro....
Take the scout... add a little more to his delay, knock his power down just a little (i consider this little loss in comparison to the im never blocked thing), and take away his great movement. Now add an attack that covers 5 spaces. Now, you will never hit 5 units with this... 3 on a good attack, 2 normally, but all in all... weighed against your archer... i think he comes out better. Imagine what three pyro's could do, all in succession. You kill everything but a fighter who's down to 10 health that way. I personally think his "i can hit wards, I never miss, and I hit way more people that you" beats the scouts "well im nearly as slow delay wise as you, i get blocked, and I cant hit wards but I move really far when i do move... and... and..." so it ends up being assassins>pyro>scout. Now toss in two scouts and I sing a different tune... used to do that, two scouts becomes deadly. One scout is pfft. I never really see them shine 1v1 2v2 or in an actual game. as for the whole assassin>pyro>scout, do remember that you definitely need a ranged unit though... two preferably at the minimum.

Alright alright... let the "I'm wrong flames" begin.

This is to be continually updated, changed so on so forth.
Feel free to post about it, but do make the posts semi constructive... I havent actually run most of this math, its based on experience and mental math, so if you actually run it and assassin does lose out, hey thats the truth. I will eventually run the math on all these units. And add golems. And other strategies. This was intended for gold strat forum, but im gonna add prettier stuff for them, like maybe the full and final version of this whole thing. Now... post back. Comments... whatever.

Good luck at TAO.

[Hashish_Scout]

nice list

[xyxaxyz2]

Scout's recovery is only 2. That isn't bad at all. The only time he can't make second hit is if the cleric is well defended, but if they waste units defending the cleric use him to kill magic users. His blocking is good too.

Enchantress is better than you say, the problem is most people only use her defensively. Attack lone scouts and assassins, and groups of knights. Also useful against lightning near endgame.

[ABronsonM]

Knights are better than assassins. Period. Knights only need 2 hits against the 35% side block *not 40%* of the assassin, while assassins need 4 hits to take down the knight. Basically in your average battle, knights will win. Assassins may be useful but if you ever get them flanked they are dead.

[xyxaxyz2]

Assassins are faster they can kill entire groups of magic users if you have a pyro supporting them or their cleric is dead.

Also, because they have 18 attack and great speed great against clerics.

[ABronsonM]

A good player defends against the assassin rush. Trust me on that one

[xyxaxyz2]

1. Most players aren't good.
2. Defending is expensive.

[icedragon]

What on earth are you talking about? I think assassins rock because
A) They look cool.
B) They have one of the best recovery times in the game.
C) there attack is wicked, especially if you are surrounded
D) They are fast like crazy.

[darkdelirium]

okay, okay... as for the assassin versus knight thing... lets run the math fully. bout time i did that...

Assassin does 17 damage to knight. Knight does 19 to assassin. Assassin, 35 health, and yes, 35% block to sides. Knight has 50 health and block doesnt matter because he gets flanked every attack. According to probability, knight should hit once, miss once, and hit for kill. Assassin should hit every time... so...

First round. Knight attacks, assassin is down to 16 health. Assassin attacks knight, knights down to 33 health.

Second round... knight attacks assassin and misses. Assassin attacks knight and gets him down to 16 health.

Third round, knight attacks assassin and assassin dies before he can attack.

But wait... what happens if assassin attacks first... it gets a killing blow before knight! So guess what... knight=assassin in 1v1, the first blow rules. But only if probability is playing truly random, 1 hit then one miss as probability states it should be.

So, there ... assassin is more flexible than knight, gets more damage potential, and better movement with same delay.

[Shadoww3]

you forgot the tremendous armor advantage

sorry- no you didn't

no wait, you must have- 25% of 18 isn't 17

[darkdelirium]

yup. thats right

[bladetalon]

assassin sucks... plain and simple... any damage you could do when 'surrounded' (like that's a good thing) before you get mauled, is negligible, cause the cleric can just heal it...

I'm thinking you guys are just reminded of diablo by her....

[bladetalon]

don't dump on the enchantress either.... you can save a lot of turns using it on the legion of noobs out there.

[xyxaxyz2]

Because assassins are fast they can also move into better defensive positions than knights. Their real advantage is speed. Knights are just to slow to be useful for much of the game. Assassins are where you need them and can run when they must.

[Dragonslayers]

Yes, the Knight does beat the Assassin, but only technically.

Knight does 22 damage. Assassin removes 12% of that for 19.36. Only 65% of the time does the hit land; so we can say an average of 12.584 hp lost per "round". Since the Assassin has 35 hp, it takes her 2.781 turns to die [the absolute "average"].

Assassin does 18 damage. Knight removes 25% of that for 13.5 total. No armor, of course, since the Assassin always strikes from behind. Since he has 50 hp, it takes him 3.703 turns to die [average].

The difference is so small [1 turn] that the advantage of having the first strike is really negligible. Besides, EVERY human unit will lose mano a mano to a freshly healed Knight. Just look at the Dark Witch, for instance. Let's say she can always get to the side. That's .60*.75*24 for only 10.8 damage average, even LESS than the Assassin. And the recovery time is triple the Assassin's. The Knight EASILY beats the Witch [.9*22= 19.8 damage, nearly double the damage at nearly triple the pace].

So what's the lesson? The Assassin's two greatest assets are obviously her ability to get behind the Knight [thus giving 1.66x as much damage] and her fast recovery [equal damage pacing with Knight].

The best use for the Assassin is not 1-1 with Knight. Just let her hang back, and then move her up quickly to strike any side-turned knight [you can thus get behind with 2 fewer movement points]. And then right back to safety

Of course, if a Knight is even slightly damaged, it's easy pickings